February 19, 2013
Tishman Teams With China On 201 Folsom, Plans To Start Soon
Tishman Speyer is teaming with China Vanke Co. to finance the development of the 201 Folsom Street project. China Vanke will contribute $175 million and have a 70 percent stake while Tishman will contribute $75 million and maintain a 30 percent share. The remainder of the $620 million project will be financed with debt.
As plugged-in people know, Tishman Speyer officially filed for their building permits to construct two towers rising 37 and 42 stories, and two 8-story plaza buildings, with a total of 655 new residential units over underground parking and street level retail on the 201 Folsom Street site this past September with plans to commence construction upon the issuance of said permits.
Having submitted revised designs in December, Planning has yet to sign off on the final plans and the permits have yet to be issued. According to another plugged-in tipster, however, Tishman has been planning to commence construction in March.
∙ The Arquitectonica Redesigned 201 Folsom Street Rendering Scoop [SocketSite]
∙ 201 Folsom Street Timing: Immediately (Upon Approval Of Permits) [SocketSite]
∙ Permits Filed For Tishman's 201 Folsom Street Towers [SocketSite]
First Published: February 19, 2013 8:00 AM
Comments from "Plugged In" Readers
Can't they make it look a bit less like the Infinity?
Posted by: sfhighrise at February 19, 2013 8:21 AM
Bland, bland... bland
Posted by: Sam at February 19, 2013 8:56 AM
so many people in the city are going to lose the last bit of unfettered Bay Bridge views with these two buildings. Bummer.
Posted by: Ta hoe at February 19, 2013 9:18 AM
Nothing but negativity on this site. I like the design and think it will be a good addition to the Infinity project. It will bring unity to the area. Think Embarcadero Center here or the World Financial Center in Lower Manhattan.
Posted by: emanon at February 19, 2013 9:24 AM
The lot is an ideal location for new construction. Ok, the design echoes the Infinity. I admit the renderings don't look too amazing but I'll withhold final judgement for now.
Recently, units at the Infinity have been selling for extremely high prices. 35E which with a view facing directly into the new construction is listed at nearly $1.8M! (And according to Zillow, the buyer purchased for closer to $1M)
As soon as construction starts, which looks like it could be very soon, prices for West facing units will need to come down. Final call perhaps on sky high Infinity priced condos?
Posted by: sfresident at February 19, 2013 9:28 AM
I believe the rendering includes a peek at the Warriors stadium at teh end of Main St.
Posted by: Jim of San Fran at February 19, 2013 9:38 AM
It's interesting to look at the Infinity's timeline when looking at this project. It went through the approval process just 10 years ago in 2003-2004, construction started in 2005 and it was delivered in 2008.
This is how cycles work. A positive market footing (like a strong nascent real estate recovery) leads investors to start a new project that will take roughly a 1/2 decade to complete.
The timing of the Infinity was almost perfect, hitting the very top of the last cycle. Very very smart. I hope they succeed on this one too.
Posted by: lol at February 19, 2013 10:02 AM
Pretty good- looks like they got just under 70% LTV. Wonder what the rate is? I'm assuming these will be for sale condos, so probably some adjustable 5-7 year type construction loan to be taken out via sold condos.
Posted by: 49yo hipster at February 19, 2013 10:18 AM
Lot's happening around this area. Unlike the transbay developments, I believe 201 Folsom will not have any affordable units onsite which is a plus. Resale market should cool off in a few years after all this development.
Posted by: Ivan at February 19, 2013 10:47 AM
"Think Embarcadero Center"...really? I worked in EC1 on the 35th floor for years. Great view, but the 4 building complex essentially created a massive wall. Its retail composition has shifted over the years as many tenants got priced out or left because of lack of traffic.
Posted by: Mark at February 19, 2013 1:38 PM
This will be great for the Infinity values because the area will become a real neighborhood rather than just a commercial area that has no sense of neighborhood feel.
Posted by: Anon at February 19, 2013 1:56 PM
I'd say Infinity values might take a hit during sales due to the enormous amount of units coming online. But in the long run, yes, it probably be better for the neighborhood.
Posted by: IC at February 19, 2013 2:01 PM
This rendering is not accurate.
Posted by: PDX at February 19, 2013 2:05 PM
IC, I am not so sure about the lower resale value.
After all, the Infinity towers will not have aged that much in 5 years, and be very close to new. At the same time, expect the new units in these 2 new towers to be priced outrageously high, leaving quite a bit of wiggle room to the Infinity sellers. In short if you purchased at the Infinity at 1000/sf and the new towers are at 1500 (wild guess, 5 years from now), you could market your "used" condo for 1300 or more.
That's my theory, based on "rear-view-mirror analytics.
Posted by: lol at February 19, 2013 2:57 PM
7 condos per floor on average? Seems like really squeezing a lot into not very big footprints. Why is there so little new construction of 3+ bed condos... I guess the developers know their market, but the construction just exacerbates the demographic imbalances that already plague this city.
[Editor's Note: 201 Folsom Towers Floor Plan Sneak Peek.]
Posted by: Itsy at February 19, 2013 3:19 PM
In these towers family-sized 3+ bedroom condos would not be cheap. The type of family that could afford this can probably buy an old 2/1 fixer in Noe, the Castro, BH or GP and expand it into a comfy 4/3 for the same kind of money. And they'll probably have a garden and no need for valet parking or 24/7 security.
I am not too worried about these families. They typically create their own environment when needed. I am more worried about families making less than 200K/Y. There's less and less room for them these days.
Posted by: lol at February 19, 2013 3:33 PM
"The timing of the Infinity was almost perfect, hitting the very top of the last cycle. Very very smart. I hope they succeed on this one too."
lol: I think you are practicing revisionist history here. From the developers perspective, Tower 2 units were sold both well below expectations and Tower 1 prices. I'd say they were at least 12 months if not 18 months behind the peak. Good for T2 buyers however...
Posted by: Willow at February 19, 2013 3:58 PM
If you're worried about middle-income families (not to be confused with the "middle class" term used on Capitol Hill to describe families that would be low-income in San Francisco) then you should be encouraged about all the new development in SoMa, Mission Bay, etc. This new supply of expensive, but family-unfriendly condos should cause a migration of high-income singles and DINKs away from the family-friendly parts of the city. That should free up some homes and flats for the families, don't you agree? Or are you insisting that high-rises in South Beach cater to families, like some members of the Politbüro (SFBoS).
Posted by: formidable doer of the nasty at February 19, 2013 4:00 PM
Tower 2 buyers purchased at ~30% off original asking prices. These folks should do well no matter what.
The question is how new inventory will affect Infinity resales at current asking prices, which are very high relative to the original purchase prices just a few years back. Some units that sold for close to $1M are asking $1.7-1.8M at resale.
With so much new development in the pipeline, and West facing views about to be, at least partially, obstructed by 201, I don't think current asking prices for many Infinity units will be sustainable over the coming few years.
I predict a softening.
Posted by: sfresident at February 19, 2013 4:55 PM
I, for one, am excited that we'll soon be able to debate Infinity (redux) vs (Two) Rincon. It'll be just like the old days!
Posted by: curmudgeon at February 19, 2013 5:03 PM
I stand corrected. I did extrapolate the tower I records into Tower II
It still looks like a pretty profitable venture overall and the original buyers are doing fine whether in Tower I or Tower II.
Posted by: lol at February 19, 2013 5:36 PM
Agree overall original Infinity buyers should be in good shape. I predict however that current resale values may soften with so much new inventory coming.
Posted by: sfresident at February 19, 2013 5:56 PM
re families, 201 folsom is proposed to have about 92 3bds which is more than most developments nearby. Not really sure if there are that many families seeking housing in this area. The 3 bed units in the midrise can be a more affordable option if a family must live in Rincon Hill.
Posted by: Ivan at February 20, 2013 8:36 AM
@Ivan, I live in South Beach with one toddler (& one more child on the way) and find it to be a nice neighborhood.
It's in dire need of a playground, but otherwise being close to the Embarcadero and Ferry Building provides a nice environment.
Getting more 3 bedroom units at a more affordable price point (i.e. not just in the highest floors) would be great!
Posted by: sfresident at February 20, 2013 9:02 AM
37 and 42 stories. Is this really necessary? How many of these wind tunnel creating buildings do we need? Who is approving all of these? Can't we have some variety in height and look that is worthy of San Francisco?
Posted by: Sfgrace at February 20, 2013 5:45 PM
"37 and 42 stories. Is this really necessary?"
Yes. If you like living in a city that is allowed to grow naturally, and as needed, then yes it is necessary.
Posted by: cbf at February 20, 2013 5:55 PM
I agree @Sfgrace - 57 and 62 stories is MUCH more appropriate for the location.
Posted by: anon at February 20, 2013 6:03 PM
Being one block further away from the waterfront to the infinity would've been ideal for this project to be 50 stories or more. Like the renderings. We'll see if this project exceeds the infinity.
Posted by: Cat at February 20, 2013 9:07 PM
"I agree @Sfgrace - 57 and 62 stories is MUCH more appropriate for the location."
Just to keep things consistent how about 17 and 22 stories? What's appropriate is simply a matter of personal preference...
Posted by: Willow at February 21, 2013 12:31 PM
Agree that building the towers the same height as Infinity could look funky. I'm on the side of "go higher." This is a city, not Marin county.
In the downtown area, there will be tall buildings. And high density.
Posted by: sfresident at February 21, 2013 11:11 PM