SocketSite™

woooooweee them pictures of 2103 are as sterile as a mule in a burn unit!

It's been said before, but I think spending a little $$ on staging would really help here.

well, from the tone of this segment it sounds like one rincon has been discussed ad nauseum. sorry to be late to the party. can we revisit just the basic question of what kind of weirdo would want to live here? i try to keep a "different strokes for different folks" open mind, but this one is beyond my powers of imagination. sorry. you'd have to pay me to live there, and not just a little. did you know there are 10,000ish houses for sale in detroit for $1? not a typo, $1. so there are places that people just won't live, regardless of price. rincon is the detroit of san francisco, as far as i'm concerned.

"No, we’re not just trying to stir the pot."

ROFL! Is this an example of irony from the SS editor, or just a try at reverse psychology?

What the reason for this sale? Is it another *relocation*?

Really who cares if you would live there or not? You're one lonely, self-important person who feels the need to share your preferences with total strangers to feel like someone casre about you. No one does.

Is it just me or does 4600$ rent seem too cheap for a place that costs over 1.2 million$? (Alternatively, is 1.2 million$ too much for a place that can only rent for 4600$?). A rent of 55200$/year minus the 14k$ of property taxes and almost 10k$ of hoa fees leaves a return of only 2.6% on an investment of 1.229 million$. Even with all the rate cuts lately I'm getting better than that in my online bank account.

Speaking of not trying to stir the pot... "the detroit of san francisco?" and from someone with the handle of "marina girl"
troll troll troll troll

good point; think of how much less lonely i'd be if i lived there. all 140,000 of my friends would drive right by on the freeway next to my front window every day. fantastic. on the topic of loneliness, um, dude, you're blogging. reality check!

so seriously, what are the plusses of living here? isn't real estate about location, location, location? am i really off-topic asking about the demand situation of a poorly-located dwelling site?

but thanks for the personal attack, saysomething. way to add to the discussion!

What does a property management company take, 10% of the rent usually?

These places look lost. Very disapointed - overtly plain and far to humble.

Of course SS is stirring the pot. But with good reason. This development illustrates the bubble (and its deflating) in SF very well. Even if one assumes the recent buyer can get $4600/mo in rent -- and I doubt it as one can get fantastic places all over the city for that -- this is still far below the carrying costs (just property taxes and HOA fees alone are about $2000/mo -- and you still have to add in the mortgage!). These units were priced at 2006 bubble levels, but this is now 2008 and a whole different world. The part that stuns me is that anyone decided to close at these prices when you could just walk away and take a much lower hit -- and likely turn around and buy the same place in 6 months to a year at a steep discount.

Come on guys. This place is awesome. You just wish you had a view like that. Lucky owner - wish i could afford getting a place like that.

It is hard to find a better location than the rising Rincon Hill neighborhood for a young professional who works in the FiDi or SoMa. I tend to agree with Richard Florida ... I think the outer reaches of suburbia are going to become the slums - the next "Detroit"

A. Yes, you are trying to stir the pot.

B. Yes, all of the lightning rod topics you raised are of relevance to all; and

C. That's what investors or people who got in over their heads given the current market, do, they sell.

The phenomena of selling one's property is not unique to ORH. This is just sensationalist blogging to keep up readership, and it's well played. It is also a good bit of marketing for the site and it seems to be working (note the various periodicals both online and offline that make reference to Socketsite).

It also feels eerily similar to the aggressive marketing that goes on at this little known high-rise building near Harrison and 1st Street. Hmm, everything comes together, doesn't it?

these listings illustrate a problem for RE in SF and probably anywhere coastal california.

rental economics never make sense compared to for sale economic--either for producing a new project -- which is why there are so few new rental developments

or for renting a newly purchased unit -- where the rent will never seem the "equal" value of the sale price.

land is too expensive and hard costs are virtually the same for either type of project -- and they have inflated 50% in last 4 years.

if you paid 2006 price for hi rise condo and really have to rent it out youre just be in a tight spot on your investment -- and it really not the "fault" of anything wrong with ORH.

interesting question is what does it do to the RH rental market if theres a few hundred condos put into the supply.

ORH is reminding me more and more of "The Stratosphere" in Vegas. The Strat had huge buzz while it was being built, great views, but a crappy location waaaaaay down the Strip so you practically have to take a bus. But people thought that the great views and buzz would overcome the poor location. Just checked and weekend rooms are $59 a night.

The 1RH views from floors 20+ make my jaw drop. They're incredible! But alas, for all the reasons that have been pounded on before that make the location so horrible living-wise would keep me from ever living there.

It is WAY too early to predict huge price drops, IMO. 1RH fills a very specific niche, and we will have to wait and see whether there are enough people in that niche to keep prices afloat.

I guess this post was destined to go to the trolls, but I don't think it's unfair for the editor to try and post this for an honest discussion... but given the responses to other posts ORH, this is kind of predictable.

There's a lot of hate out there for this development, and frankly, I don't care about the views, high-rise living is quintiscentially un-San Franciscan... I don't see the appeal. Still, I was hoping ORH would be successful and these kinds of developments would take pressure off the 2-4 unit housing or even SFH's.

I don't know that any of us want to see this development take the huge hit a lot of you are so gleefully predicting (I'm waiting for those 20% price cuts in Noe Valley, Satchel ;)). That said, from the photos, at least, the views themselves don't sell this place. I wouldn't want to bother with staging costs if I was eating it on the purchase, either, but I'm surprised by how unattractive the place looks. I had to go back and check the listing for #2403 because I thought the photos were identical...

Keep in mind the units in new construction are not rent-controlled, and 30-year mortgage payments are fixed. Property taxes increase by only a small fraction each year. And HOA budgeting for new buildings is pretty sophisticated; I would not expect huge increases down the road.

Bottom line, 10 years from now rents on this unit will far, far surpass expenses. Building wealth requires a years or decades long outlook, not an analysis of next month's cashflows.

@anon: I like your style of investing! What should we call it... "wishful thinking"? You have a crystal ball... in it, you see ever-rising rents and a strong market that will sustain $5k, $6k heck why stop there? $8k/month rental returns on a mere 2/2 in ORH! Just take a small hit now on your monthly cashflow (Anyone who can't absorb a $3k/month loss for a few years is probably a loser anyway), and down the road, sometime, (it's just around the corner actually) this little slice of heaven, this magical place called ORH, will turn into a massive cash cow and you'll be set for life!

Genius! Where do I sign up??

UGH, I knew it was only a matter of time before someone questioned the "san franciscan-ness" of living in a highrise.
People here have such painfully narrow views.
provincial provincial provincial!

You can't build wealth over a decade by ignoring the cash flows either. You'll lose it all if you inadvertently become insolvent. It's bridging that gap which is the trick to investment.

Also I'm skeptical of your claim about HOA. In new buildings they are usually artificially low, until the place is sold solid and a lot of "unforeseen" structural costs get added in.

My Take: One Rincon Hill would be a very unattractive place to live - for now. There really is no "neighborhood" in the immediate area to speak of: living up on that hill is a lot like living on an island. The area is a construction zone, and will be for at least another year and a half.

However, I can see how it might make sense to buy a unit there. You invest in the concept of Rincon Hill (which will eventually become, I think, a very nice neighborhood), while putting up with the "construction island" for 1.5 years +.

Now, to rent a unit there makes NO SENSE AT ALL to me. For $4600, I know there are a lot of nice 2 br apartments within walking distance to downtown and/or with easy access to the freeway with views.

Anon 9:40 -- you may be right about rents in 10 years, but it is certainly not guaranteed. in 1998 when we bought our house, we were making the rent vs. buy decision. We looked at lots of 1 BR apartments in the inner mission for about $1500 (lines out the door). We bought instead. I see on craigslist that 1BRs in the inner mission today, 10 years later, appear to be fetching $1500 - $1800 in rent. Under your scenario, rents would have to skyrocket beyond any historical norms to make up for the huge, current hit an owner is taking on one of these places.

I wonder what percentage of units in this building will end up being occupied by owners? Aren't lenders a little leery of lending for condos in buildings where a significant portion of units are rented?

ok I was trying to resist but their was just way to much funny for me in this thread

1. Marina Girl "isn't real estate about location, location, location? " Yes it is and you apparently are living in a giant liquefaction zone that is likely to sink into the bay in a race with treasure island during a large earthquake.

2.Jamie "it is hard to find a better location than the rising Rincon Hill neighborhood for a young professional who works in the FiDi or SoMa." Well I am sure this is true with the collapse of Bear Sterns, Layoffs across the financial sector, and a slow down/recession under way, and SF LOSING population I don't see these type of people providing enough demand to fill the tower(s).

3Anon "Keep in mind the units in new construction are not rent-controlled, and 30-year mortgage payments are fixed. " Keep in mind that they number of 30 year fixed mortgages used to buy these units is probably very low espcially when you consider that +70% of all mortgages in 2005 and 2006 were some form of ARM.

so in conclusion, one persons crap location is another persons perfect location, counting on the "everyone wants to live here" mantra just isn't enough in a sliding RE market and economy, and assuming traditional financing was used during an untraditional housing bubble to calculate ROI is a mistake.

but thanks for the chuckle this morning. ;-)

Also I'm skeptical of your claim about HOA. In new buildings they are usually artificially low, until the place is sold solid and a lot of "unforeseen" structural costs get added

Any evidence for this happening in SF (aside from that conversion on Grant)? The new condo I lived in from 2000 to 2007 had pretty constant HOAs. The Met has had pretty consistent dues. If you're buying from a reputable developer who has built a quality product, the HOAs DON'T drastically up. There are, as always exceptions.

The high rise luxury development illustrates the "bubble"? How is that possible when the "bubble" never contained the high rise luxury development during its ascendancy?

There are lots of shiny new condos, folks. That's the story.

I simply don't get it... why did these people close on these units if they were just going to immediately put them up for sale??? Makes no sense to me... A) There is a no-flip clause on the building, and B) The market is MUCH worse than when they locked in a price, and the risk of it not selling is way too high. Why not just walk away like dozens of others have done??? Why God, why?

The listing agent should clean up the block before open house. The entire site looks a tornado hit it, its a complete mess.

Also I honestly can't imagine why anyone would want to rent at One Rincon. The location is so bad and inconvenient and you really can't walk anywhere without huffing and puffing back up the hill. I have a dog so where would I walk it? At the gas station?
The views are nice, but if that's all One Rincon has, I'd pass and rent at Infinity, Paramount, or Mission Bay.
I can't justify spending 2800 a month just for views. Not worth it at all.

Hmmm. Speaking as a former Inner Mission landlord here, 1 BRs for $1500 10 years ago in the Inner Mission? With lines out the door? I don't know about that. We rented a newly remodelled 2BR with parking in the Inner Mission for $1800 10 years ago and we were very, very happy to get that. There was only one taker and the rent was astronomical at the time. This was '97-'98. I would say more like 2000 is when the rental market took off, though I still question $1500 for 1BRs in the Mish. And if you go back a few years earlier to like '96, 1BRS in the Mission could be had for $750 or so. Even crappy two units. That number doubled at some point and never came back, nor will it.

"My Take: One Rincon Hill would be a very unattractive place to live - for now. There really is no "neighborhood" in the immediate area to speak of: living up on that hill is a lot like living on an island. The area is a construction zone, and will be for at least another year and a half.

However, I can see how it might make sense to buy a unit there. You invest in the concept of Rincon Hill (which will eventually become, I think, a very nice neighborhood), while putting up with the "construction island" for 1.5 years +.

Now, to rent a unit there makes NO SENSE AT ALL to me. For $4600, I know there are a lot of nice 2 br apartments within walking distance to downtown and/or with easy access to the freeway with views."

The above post from gmlight is probably the most objective and accurate statement regarding ORH because it points out the shortcomings of the project at present (which I fully acknowledge), but also recognizes its potential for the future for those that have more than a 2 second attention span, do not have some hidden agenda, or are just plain bitter about their current lot in life.

Bob,
I'm not the first and won't be the last to say high-rises aren't "San Franciscan". But if you like them, that's super. I'm glad developers are adding to the mix of housing stock. As I said in my first post, I hope this place does well. I, however, need a place with a backyard so high-rises are out for me. But for people who would consider them, the 2 listings make ORH look to be kind of crap. Is that a slight on the realtors or the development? I guess I'll have to go to an open house to know for sure.
Perhaps I should've added "historically" to "un-San Franciscan" but I think you knew what I meant and just wanted to tsk tsk me. Try not to confuse taste with narrow-mindedness.

Re: badlydrawnbear "The Met has had pretty consistent dues."

Actually the Met dues increased by about 20% in 2007 over 2006, and are still increasing far more quickly than inflation due to the developer dumping the HOA with a woefully inadequate reserve plan.

Sometimes I really wonder why we read these blogs with so many worthless opinions. Guess it makes for twisted entertainment. Obviously everyone can't be right at the same time and that means that at least half the people are wrong.

We'll see who has the last laugh.

Anon 9:40 --
I agree with Trip.

The place I rented in Inner Sunset in 1996-99 rented for 1800/month (very tiny 550 sq ft 2br 1ba shag carpet sort of place)

It's been 12 years since I left, and rent there is still under $2k.

--------
"it is hard to find a better location than the rising Rincon Hill neighborhood for a young professional who works in the FiDi or SoMa."

I wouldn't go quite that far because IMO there are lots of better locations, BUT it is a fairly good location if you work in SoMA or FiDi. It's just a few minutes to Market St and just a few more to FiDi

This summer I walked from FiDi to ORH (actually just 2 blocks away) every day for 2 weeks. never took me more than 15 minutes.

My friends who are moving in there are all working in FiDi/Union Square area, and it's a quick jaunt.

plus it's sunny.

ORH has lots of positives IMO as well as some significant negatives.

Meh its not worthless--lots of good ideas here. For example I agree with the person who said renting here now does not make a lot of sense. The neighborhood seems like it will take a couple years after the 2nd tower is built to really flourish. Also, I disagree with all the people that say these buildings are ugly--i think when the 2nd tower is built its going to look relatively nice. The views are increidble no question. And if you wait a year or so before buying youll probably get a steal of a price.

just a clarification ... I did not say anything about the met or HOA dues in my post ... but MetLiver's point is probably still valid

Wow, Wow, Wow. I can't believe we are still stuck on One Rincon Hill. Can't we move on?

It will be tough for the eveloper to compete with the first tower when trying to sell the second. Something tells me this is just the begining of this train wreck.

What's wrong with selling?

If the owner got in early ($800K?), he would walk way with a fat profit ($300K?).

Even the rentals may be cashflow positive for the owners if they got in early.

I don't even know what the point of this discussion is. If you BUY NOW and then put it out for rental NOW, you are screwed. But we don't know that.

"Wow, Wow, Wow. I can't believe we are still stuck on One Rincon Hill. Can't we move on?"

what would we talk about?
:)

face it, it's an interesting topic to many people!

ORH=the Britney Spears of SF Real Estate.

they both get people talking, they both are shouded in controversy, they both have a lot of positives but some glaring defects.

the 2 listings make ORH look to be kind of crap

This has been a pet peeve of mine for so long (voiced often at Socketsite).

we're theoretically paying RE professionals BIG money (4-6% of a MILLION dollars+ for goodness sakes)

why can't they take good pictures of the place? make the place worth touring.

If I had only seen these pictures then I'd never go to the open house.

I've seen the model (like a hundred times) and the model looks 1,000x better than these pics do.

Thus, either
-the model overstates how nice these will be
or
-it's the crappiest picture job ever.
(more likely the latter)

c'mon folks! get a good camera and good lighting!

also, the condos themselves are rather plain jane. that's ok, because the view is what you want. but that means you need to stage the darn places. You can rent good staging furniture for $500-1000 or so... if nothing else, just do it for the pictures...
staging will make plain jane look AMAZING.

again, we're talking OVER A MILLION dollars here! and the difference between a sale and no sale.

if nothing else, call HGTV!!!! they have staging shows for free!

It appears that all the discussion of resale of new Rincon area condos is focused ORH.

However, the Infinity is experiencing the same market pressures, possibly to a greater extent given they have a second building half constructed that will be competing with the unsold units in its first tower.

Here are a couple of re-sale listings on Craigslist for The infinity:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/rfs/612167749.html
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/rfs/608911144.html

In addition, here are the listings for rentals at the Infinity:

Mar 20 - $2800 / 1br - Brand New Luxury Condominium - Infinity
Mar 19 - $3500 / 1br - Infinity - 1 bed 1 bath - luxury view condo
Mar 19 - $4850 / 2br - Brand New Two Bedroom at the Infinity.
Mar 19 - $9000 / 3br - Brand New Mid Tower Condo with Stunning Views at the Infinity.
Mar 19 - $3900 / 1br - Luxury Living at The Infinity
Mar 19 - $5795 / 2br - New Luxury Infinity - Curved Windows-Views!
Mar 19 - $2950 / 1br - BRAND NEW Luxurious living at The Infinity, gym, pool, parking
Mar 18 - $3950 / 2br - Luxury Living at The Infinity
Mar 17 - $5495 / 2br - Infinity - 19th floor! Pano views! Gorgeous!
Mar 16 - $5600 / 2br - Stunning apartment in the Infinity building
Mar 16 - $3700 / 1br - 1ba: Highest Floor Infinity 1BR. 27th Floor. Free Rent. *Ready*
Mar 16 - $8250 / 2br - 1800+ sq ft large 2bd+den, 2.5 bath in THE INFINITY
Mar 14 - $3950 / 2br - Luxury Living at The Infinity
Mar 14 - $4000 / 2br - Be the First to Live at the All New Infinity! Must See!
Mar 13 - $3900 / 1br - New Luxury Condo at The Infinity
Mar 13 - $3695 / 1br - CityScape View from this luxurious unit at the INFINITY

My wife and I moved to SF in the spring of '98 and the rental market was as Trip describes. A tiny selection of overpriced units fetching multiple applications attached to the newly requisite "rental resumes" (our cat even had his own reference). The unit we ended up renting in Pac Heights after two months of looking goes for about 8% more today than we first paid in '98.

The location seems like an island, someone said. Isn't that why Rincon Hill was favored by the wealthy in the past? It is close enough to allow easy access to downtown, while keeping the hubub of all that at a distance. The bridge is an issue, but the ramp is being moved and the Clocktower lofts have been a success even with some of the same challenges.

The lack of staging keeps attention on the views. It can be nice not to have to mentally clear the room of clutter like chopped pillows. Moving in would be simple and quick, especially if renting, since the space has already been cleared.

Tall residential buildings of various sorts have been going up all over the City since the 1920s, so claiming cliff dwelling is a recent import doesn't make sense.

1) Fired the photographer.

2) Staging will happen before 1st open house.

3) Will increase the rent.

4) Will decrease the rent.

5) Calling Gavin about debris.

I think these 2 sellers are smart to get out now. Things look like it'll get much worse up there.

Frankly, if I was a contract holder I would flat out REFUSE to close until they make the place liveable.
There's no pool, no gym, no spa, no bbq pit, no trees or gardens, the place looks like a bomb hit it, there's expose drywall outside the lobby and machinery and tools everywhere. Since when do people move into active construction zone?

And now word has gotten out that Bovis may get dumped.
I would be very concerned about the quality of construction. If they knew they were about to get fired, where's the incentive to do a good, quality job?
I'd be worried, very worried.

Renters there should hold out for a much cheaper price.

Ha ha, maybe these will go as corporate rentals.

"Here's the condo we rented for you. In Siberia. Next to the Freeway. In a war zone!"

I'd be insulted.

"Tall residential buildings of various sorts have been going up all over the City since the 1920s, so claiming cliff dwelling is a recent import doesn't make sense"

I guess so, but nothing during dot-com and "bubble" times.

A lot of you are statisticians here: What % of SF residents live in buildings with 4 units or less? For a city with such an extensive (though fairly ineffective) public transportation network, SF feels positively suburban. Large developments aren't the norm here, and so why is it any surprise people are particularly interested in ORH?
Maybe a decent photographer could help the view "sell" these units, but as it stands now, the photos don't. I peronally hate a lot of the staging out there, but I think a well directed sale includes helping out a potential buyer's imagination in seeing themselves living there. Most of us aren't budding interior decorators.

Heh. Didn't see Paul's comments before my post.
I'm a structural engineer and have taken prettier pictures of my work before the finishes go up... lmk if you need help ;)
GL with Gavin...

1) Fired the photographer....

Who looks surprisingly like Paul in the photo of the bathroom in the rental listing of 2103.

I have a serious question about the decor of the kitchen: Is it normal to have a 2" backsplash on the kitchen counters, with painted walls above? It looks a little odd to me. That's not a cheap kitchen at all, but it makes it look like they ran out of money.

BTW, I love the trap door above the kitchen cabinets in the kitchen photo in the rental listing. I assume that's where the renters stash the cat when the maintenance guy comes?

Paul.. Fess up. Last time that I toured one of your listings, you had an expensive digital camera around your neck.

Hehe. You guys are brutal...
No bathroom photo now. Hmm... I could've sworn there was when I looked this morning.

I fess!

3) Will increase the rent.

4) Will decrease the rent.

ROFL!!! that made my day!

as for staging:
I'm not saying go over the top, with the aqua-brown chopped pillows and a coffee tray with teapot perched on the end of the bed and baked cookies and all...

just saying a few pieces: a small loveseat and chair, a dinette, a bed with nice sheets and a pillow... also a few colors to spice it up

otherwise the place looks so blah. especially those bedrooms:
white walls
white/beige carpet
it just doesn't flatter the place.

also: Not sure if it could be done, but a pic of the nighttime view wouldn't be bad either. the views from up there at night are what I would pay for. (I'm one of the few that think that many views of SF in daytime are sortof dingy, but some of the most beautiful at night)

Uhh. Sorry about the multiple posts... was hitting F5 on the wrong window.
No chopped pillows. Please and thank you.

Oh, mandatory disclosure:

The blue arrow "sculpture" depicted in the building picture at the top of the page is not included in the purchase price of $1.229 million. However I think we can work something out if anyone is interested in it.

I don't get the 'Gavin' joke? But I do know that he sucks!

"It appears that all the discussion of resale of new Rincon area condos is focused ORH."

J-LEE,

Your posting highlights the lack of objectivity on this site, where the Socketsite editor consistently focuses on topics tailor made to hammer ORH. It makes me wonder who or what influences his choices. Oops, I'd better be careful, else I'll have my posts removed ... as commentary about the Infinity's new neighbors at the 'temporary' bus station at Main and Folsom have been before.

The key issue [and I welcome a string on this topic] as J-LEE pointed out, is how the Infinity plans to rid itself of its remaining 25% inventory in Tower I, prior to starting the sales on its soon to be complete second tower. To those that paid $1300 per sq. ft for north-east views, this is the disaster waiting to happen. Perhaps the inferno I saw from the Met a couple of days ago was the start of the Infinity fire sale?

[Editor's Note: Let's see, you could always try Infinity Update: Construction, Tower Two, And Possibly Even Sales, or perhaps Infinity Update: Closings, Move-Ins And Even Kitchen Cabinetry, or even The Temporary Transbay Terminal Site, Design, And Meeting (to point out just a few).]

Your posting highlights the lack of objectivity on this site, where the Socketsite editor consistently focuses on topics tailor made to hammer ORH.

It's a blog, and a business. As someone mentioned, ORH is the Brittany Spears/Lindsey Lohan/Paris Hilton of real estate topics around here. It's a train wreck that generates a lot of interest and traffic, so he posts it.

Nothing really wrong with that...

Anon,

I guess both of you are compensated from the same pool of capital, so I'm not surprized that this is your viewpoint.

I guess both of you are compensated from the same pool of capital, so I'm not surprized that this is your viewpoint.

Hah! I wish! You're delusional if you think EVERYONE who dislikes this project is being paid to express their dislike. I have no monetary interest whatsoever in this project (thank god for that).

Anon -

Isn't this your unit for sale. You allegedly have a low floor unit facing Main Street that you bought for $850 per sq. ft. Seeing the writing on the wall perhaps?

$710000 Infinity 1BD/1BA+Den w/ HW Floor upgrade,walkin closet,deeded parking (SOMA / south beach)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reply to: hous-608911144@craigslist.org
Date: 2008-03-17, 7:19AM PDT

Take over my contract. I bought this first few days sales opened, at great price. On 5th Floor in low-rise facing Main St. 838 sf according to prelim. Unit has walkin-closet, and hardwood floor upgrade. Deeded parking. Closing by end of March, so you must have loan pre-approved or act fast. Serious inquiries only please.

Ray

Folsom St. at Main St.

Not mine, I didn't pay that much for it. I also bought it to live in, so I'm happy. Nice try though. Must feel like the Alamo, being the lone defender of ORH. Got to admire your persistence.

Hmm, this post isn't about Infinity. Recent ORH buyer, why don't you go post your love for Infinity on the other postings as Socketsite suggested to you. Not sure why you keep mentioning other developments. Does it make you feel better?
I really like Arterra and Radiance and hate SomaGrand but won't mention it here cuz its about One Rincon and all it's issues.

guess I'm the other person "compensated from the same pool of capital" (not sure what that means)

but you have to admit ORH buyer, ORH generates BUZZ...

I related ORH to Britney, and you must admit:
"they both get people talking, they both are shouded in controversy, they both have a lot of positives but some glaring defects."

I personally put Infinity and ORH in the exact same boat.

But for whatever reason ORH generates more buzz (positive and negative).

I THINK (this is just a guess) it is because it sits out there all alone on that hill, whereas Infinity is not so obvious (nestled and more ignorable). also, because in its early days many discussed it possibly being the "next great SF landmark".

it's a lot of pressure, and sure to bring out some lovers and haters!

It's just like any other "different" thing. They often take heat. The Eiffel Tower is now regarded as a Parisian treasure, but hated when it went up. But Montparnasse was always regarded as a hated structure, when built and now.

only time will tell if ORH will be an Eiffel Tower, or a Montparnasse.

(and of course, the Transamerica building had its detractors as well...)

Haha, the Alamo. That's funny. Recent ORH buyer, you should get some award for your admirable defense of your fort. But have you noticed your fort is getting swamped by attackers?
As someone said before, its like your ship is sinking, but since your the captain, you go down with the ship.
Don't worry, we'll make sure you get a posthumous medal of honor.

Ah,

The Skybox listing is the one I went and saw. Not worth 4600... not the view, not the finishes, not the amenities, not the location.

Like I said before, I think this will make a superb corporate rental for someone, and a great line item on the company expense account.

Ex-Sfer,

I actually wasn't referring to you. The reference was aimed at the Infinity P.R. people that justify their keep with multiple postings under different identities. It's not that tough to use more than one I.P. address to post.

It's a fair point about ORH being a lightning rod for controversy. However, while I realize it will always be a prominent topic of conversation, other buildings with similar issues should also enter the discussion, even if ORH does dominate. No bonus points for guessing the one I think deserves more focus :-)

Recent ORH buyer,
Nothing against you, but you're a really funny [guy] (or gal) :-)
Why are you so suspicious and paranoid of Infinity? What did they ever do to you?

Regardless, I really do enjoy your post, it's entertaining stuff you keep mentioning Infinity on a 1 Rincon blog.

[Editor's Note: Let's see, you could always try Infinity Update: Construction, Tower Two, And Possibly Even Sales, or perhaps Infinity Update: Closings, Move-Ins And Even Kitchen Cabinetry, or even The Temporary Transbay Terminal Site, Design, And Meeting (to point out just a few).]

Editor,

That's three Infinity topics in just over 3 months. On the other hand we have 1-2 ORH topics virtually every week. This does sound objective, assuming you consider Fox News to actually be "fair and balanced". They don't call it Fox Noise or Fixed News for nothing ... and I think this website has similar tendancies.

Infinity Buyer,

I aim to please - glad you enjoy :-)

I actually like both developments.. but I do think ORH grabs more attention cuz well---its one of the tallest towers in the western US and it's not surrounded by anything in a major US city. People are gonna notice...anyone driving into the city is going to see the contruction and go...so WTF is that?
Also doesn anyone have a theory why they stopped construction. I mean they went full speed and now appear to be stalling..is there some money do or something when they top it off? or some sort of closing requirement that has financial requirements?

How's this for a business model...I'm going to buy the condo right next to the freeway...and sell advertising for my window space.

Good?

Bad?

Alex-- great idea! Very creative. I'm sure the HOA will have a great deal (negative) to say about it.

Also rent it out to 20 mexican day laborers just to really p*ss them off!

thanks ORH buyer.

keep up the faith.

in the end, if I recall, you bought your place to live in.

I own property and my place will surely depreciate... but I don't care. I'm sure most socketsite readers would attack it viciously, even though I LOVE my place...

I'm sure it'd be like "Oh my god, your crown moulding is not even flush with the ceiling... and you can still see paint splashes on parts of it from 3 owners ago... and you call that a neighborhood?? My girlfriend was attacked by a raving homeless poop last week there! and you don't even live in SF anymore... what are you some sort of loser? do they even have oxygen there or is it only toothless rednecks? what do you do for dinner there since I'm sure the restaraunts are awful... eat your grandma?"

ROFL.

So I can only imagine what it would be like if I were in ORH buyer's shoes.

Recent ORH Buyer, this site has bent over backwards trying to show both sides regarding the battle of the towers. There was even the "Great One Rincon Hill/Infinity Smackdown" in November of 2006 which was almost WWIII, but my favorite is still "V is for Valet (and Ventless)", which still makes for funny reading. The nasty comments are not just Socketsite readers, go to SFGATE and search their articles on ORH, look at the comments readers throughout the Bay Area have posted, talk about NASTY!". The only other building that seems to draw such negativity is the Soma "Grand". I am used to my home being picked on as well, as I own in the Marina, and have developed a thick skin regarding commenters who love to pick on my hood. It comes with the territory when you are not a Mission Hipster.

That's true. The comments on SFGate and other blogs are universally negative on One Rincon. Socketsite is actually tame compare to other sites. Some are down right brutal towards One Rincon.

Recent ORH buyer, why constantly mention Infinity. They are over 80 percent sold and doing well. How many other developments in SF would love to be over 80 percent sold.
Arterra? Somagrand? Millenium? Not even close.

By the way, I live in S beach and commute to Silicon Valley. No way am I afiliated with Infinity. I don't care about them.
Watching One Rincon implode though, that is interesting to watch!

Ex-Sf-er & Anonandon,

I certainly will keep the faith. There are multiple troglodytes [often paid P.R. folks] that post here and ultimately I don't get too phased by their banter. Sounds like you two share the same perspective. I bought to live in my place and my lovely new bride and I will enjoy doing just that.

It's "fazed" not "phased" - unless you're from Star Trek - but no bother - look what happened to me and I spoke perfect English . . .

If these units, 2104 and 2304 were bought for $800K and similar prices back in 2006, why is there so much noise about these units being a disaster? I'm sure they are worth $800K regardless of the short term issues such as construction, etc.. I don't believe they are worth $1,000,000, but then again many places are'nt. Look at the Palms, similar square footage is way over a million and they are not as nice.

As for Infinity, they are not all that either, they are expensive and the kitchens don't impress me. Even Watermark Penthouses were boosting the Almillmo cabinets, so what, there were only 2 of them. It's all just hype, but at $800K, these buyers got a deal. Maybe that's the problem, envy.

What were these units bought for? Anybody?

I agree $800k is a fair price to buy these units. Marking it up to $1.3M is crazy. Lower them to $950k and they might sell. The seller will walk with $100k after transfer tax, agent fees etc. Nice way to make $100k!

I looked at this stack the first week of sales and they were much more expensive than $800K. Closer to $1M if I remember correctly.

OK, I read some of these and the bottom line is...What did these people pay for these units? All else is moot.

If my agent is correct, the first day of release, these were going for around 800/sqft and up. So you're looking at 1-1.1M if you got in early.

Here's some units available after the pre-release party:
3506 - 1.3M
2503 - 1.170M
2203 - 1.115M
1706 - 990K
1303 - 975K

"OK, I read some of these and the bottom line is...What did these people pay for these units? All else is moot."

Disagree. Unless you're the seller what was paid doesn't matter but what they're worth now does. Cap rate under 3% in a market that is getting riskier? My financial adviser would slap me upside the head.

And if anyone wants to know, I was close to reserving 2503 or 2203, but decided against it and I ended up getting a corner unit at Infinity at about the same price, above the 25th floor.
The indoor pool and deeded parking was the deciding factor for me.

Infinity buyer - Care to share specifics, I think you may be misleading us. What unit# and when do you close?

What unit #? Nope sorry, I won't share my unit # on Socketsite. Nobody else had, and I'm not going to be the first :-)
I got my unit very early in the process and I close in May. My price is slightly higher than 2503 at One Rincon, which was priced at 1.170M.

Here some more pricing from Infinity from a while back:
15D - 1.180M - $896/sqft
10D - 1.090M - $828/sqft
25F - 1.250M - $950/sqft
12F - 1.200M - $912/sqft
15H - 1.140M - $886/sqft
9A - 1.100M - $948/sqft

I'm with Recent ORH buyer. I wouldn't get to phased by the comments here.

until now, i had mistakenly thought "1 Rincon Hill" was going to be ORH's actual address, lol.

sf anon and team: Infinity is about 60 percent sold. Not 80 percent (dare you to prove otherwise). Meanwhile, word has it that it has closed only about 40 units while the ENTIRE tower is available for move-in. I hear that ORH has closed on 85+ homes in 6 weeks, with only floors 8-27 to play with. Infinity has likely lost more contracts, as well.

And when the temporary trans bay bus terminal moves in across the street for 10 yrs, the homeless will take over (let's have a thread about this!). Enjoy it sf anon and infinity buyer (rep)! the dirty fish tank is getting even murkier:)

Infinity buyer is an infinity rep

I'll take this moment to advertise the next Rincon Hill Neighborhood Association meeting is occuring on April 8th, starting at 6:00 p.m. - RSVP to attend, www.RinconHillNeighbors.org

Not sure about the percentage of sales at the Infinity, but I do know that the entire tower is not ready for move-in--the 5th floor, for example, is being used as a construction office. I also know that some of the midrise units are still being finished.

Hi Tito,

I would love to know where you got your information. I bought at the Infinity and I could use some additional information to renegotiate my contract :).

Thanks!

Oh, and I also know that half of all contracts at ORH have fallen out of contract (I dare you to prove otherwise!)

Tito = One Rincon Sales Rep.

I know for a fact that 27% of contract holders at One Rincon has walked away. So adding it up, over 100 folks will walk from their deposit at One Rincon.
And word has it that One Rincon will use the deposits from the walk-aways to fund the 2nd tower, which has been shorten to 3 stories, thus preserving the views for the 1st tower.

P.S. I've quit my position as Infinity P.R. and and now can be referred to as Arterra P.R. :-)

27% didn;t walk away dumb*ass - YOU are the one that posted that some time ago to purposely mislead. They lost about 16 since 2006 -- which is a miniscule number for a pre-sale project -- and sold most over again.

I'm no ORH sales rep. But I do know some some of the sales team there and think the tripe from (in order) missionbayres, anon, sf anon, blahh, infinity rep are sad and baseless and insulting to all their hard work. ORH has closed on 85. That is the fact. Sorry, anon.

@Tito

Wow, hit a nerve. The fact is that both ORH and the Infinity (and in fact every sales office) keep sales information from the general public, so no-one (outside the sales offices) really know what's going on.

Personally, I would doubt 85 units are occupied in ORH judging from the lights on at night, but I DO know that there aren't alot of people at the Infinity either (which is actually kind of nice).

Tito, Recent ORH buyer, One Rincon rep are the same person.

One Rincon has been taking down Craigslist ads from desperate contract holders trying to sell. I put up an ad and it was quickly taken down.
One Rincon is doing everything in their power to hide the fact there are a flood of cancellations. Those force to close are renting their units but finding little takers (who would want to rent up there?).
And the majority of the 200+ one bedrooms were bought by investors and speculators.
A year from now One Rincon will either be mostly empty or filled with cheap rentals.

Guys you should really quit ripping on one another. It is sad that this blog has dteriorated into name calling and rumor mongering. Both projects have a vested interest in their neighbor's performance. If one project fails, it will drag down the value of the other fairly quickly. I live in Bridgeview, so I am rooting for both ORH & Infinity to do well. Thier success is very important for the long range prospects on Rincon Hill, and on a smaller scale all new construction in SF.

All of the improvements around Rincon Hill and the Transbay will be funded by impact fees from future projects. If ORH & Infinity fail, very few new projects wil break ground, and none of the much sought improvements will take place. If you guys are really trying to protect your own pocketbooks, you should be talking up both projects every opportunity that you get.

Yeah Tito, what's with the name calling? Did I really hit a nerve? You Rincon fans sure are a sensitive bunch...

This is all fun and games, chill out.

Thanks r for the perspective...

Tito,

Is it true One Rincon closed 85 units? If so, can you ask your hardworking friends at the sales office, why the developer chose to close so many units as the building is far from finished? I went to look at an unit at ORH and the place was a mess. The lobby wasn't even finished, let alone the pool,driveway,elevator,fitness center etc. The hallways still needed drywall repairs. I'd hope if I was paying over a $1M and close to $800 HOA, the building will be done.

Correct me if I'm wrong but at least the lobby, pool and fitness center is complete and The Infinity? Not trying to compare the 2 but was curious why the rush to move people in so quick? If I bought at ORH, I'd be a little uncomfortable with the mess, location, cancelations and the rentals.

I also thought the address of ORH was One Rincon Hill :)

This thread is so full of missinformation that it is not even worth anything. One posting said that the 2403 units, which I assume that stack, were priced in the $800K range, so that would be a good basis to evaluate the pricing in general. At that price point, a 2 bedroom new unit with great views would seem like a good deal. The other postings show that it was more like $1,000,000 +, big difference. The units are sold out at Infinity except for the treetops vs. 60% sold. I though 1Rh was sold out a couple of years ago, turns out there are still units available. I for one would have loved to have been able to buy in either of these buildings back in 2006, but there was supposedly nothing available.

Just alot of bickering back and forth and nothing appears to be reliable, and it's not just a matter of perspective, these are plain out contradictions.

Hopefully we can start getting some real information about both Infinity and 1 rh, but it will have to come from new posters apparently.

shouldn't it be obvious why ORH is closing units before the building is finished? They want the money as soon as they can get it. All of the buyers were fully aware that the amenities would not be finished when they moved in.

Oh i get it. I understand the developer wants his money but even if people knew the amenities weren't ready, did they expect to move into a mess that it's currently in? Yes the developer has the right to move people in, but is it the right thing to do?

I hope this place has a lot of foreign investors planning to use ORH has a vacation home and not planning to come to San Francisco in the next 5 years.

Imagine their face if they came today or the next year and realize the 5 star living with a view their agent promised was all a lie....

Frankly, if I was a contract holder I would flat out REFUSE to close until they make the place liveable.

There's no pool, no gym, no spa, no bbq pit, no trees or gardens, the place looks like a bomb hit it, there's expose drywall outside the lobby and machinery and tools everywhere. Since when do people move into active construction zone?

This earlier posting is spot on. I don't know why anyone would close on a building still under massive construction. What were these buyers thinking?

Or is One Rincon doing some arm twisting to get folks to close just to get their money and prevent more cancellations?

"Guys you should really quit ripping on one another. It is sad that this blog has deteriorated into name calling and rumor mongering. Both projects have a vested interest in their neighbor's performance."

The most intelligent comment anyone has made on this site in months!

J-LEE

Both projects have a vested interest in their neighbor's performance. If one project fails, it will drag down the value of the other fairly quickly.

I agree, this is a great thought provoking comment!

well done, r!

"ORH = The Britney Spears of SF real estate"

Is ORH more like the young hot Britney, or more like the dumpy post prego, post K_fed dumped his load on her face Britney?

How are unit owners able to filter out the auto exhaust from getting into the building? I am not trying to bash ORH, but I ask this seriously because I am hoping they put the air intake on the roof of the building.

Our firm worked on a similar high rise next a freeway in Chicago and the city required us to locate the air intake 50 stories up on the roof. This is NOT what is typically done btw and usually it is down at ground level. I understand that the ac systems in each unit are only recirculating, but the hallways of most high rise towers usually are required to have a certain volume of fresh air pumped into them at all times.
This keeps food odors and other smells from moving from unit to unit. (Did One Rincon do this?) Any high rise buyer should look first to see how the buiding HVAC systems are designed, or you could very well end up living in a "sick building".

Opening the window would solve this problem for most people, but not when you live directly adjacent to one of the busiest freeways in the world.

Wow - it certainly got lively over the long weekend. A couple of thoughts -

Client No. 9/Eliot - My bad with the phased/fazed error, and major props for the originality of your post.

As a number of people have highlighted, ultimately ORH and the Infinity are in the same 'neighborhood' and both have a vested interest in one another's success. So, why all of the animosity? In my view, I share Tito's frustration [and occasional anger] with some of the blatently false postings here. However, I also believe that a number of posters have a divergent agenda. Let's face it, the only goal of the Infinity P.R. people posting here is to move the bloated inventory there, and the best way they have come up with to do that is to convince potential 'Rincon Hill Area' buyers that they have the only viable building in the neighborhood. Note to existing Infinity owners - this ultimatly works against you, as it results in the aforementioned bashing of your building. As more ORH buyers get fed up, they get more and more eager to expose some of the weaknesses of the Infinity ... ultimately working against our own interests ... but what choices are we left with? The ORH mis-information is simply that egregious.

Whatever the actual Infinity inventory number actually is, giving them the benefit of the doubt, even of 20% remains [of the 300 tower and treetop units] that's a total of 60 open units. However one slices it, despite all of the unfavorable 'bail me out' postings on Craigslist, ORH still emerges with far less available inventory ... almost all [if not all] of it one bedroom units. When Socketsite eventually has a thread on this topic, it may get ugly, especially if you were one of the $1000-$1300 per sq. ft. buyers at the Infinity.

I accept that bitter renters/haters in general will take their shots at ORH because of its size and visibility. However, owners of both ORH and Infinity should ultimately realize they have more alligned interets. However, with so many pseudo-owners on this site, the entire symbiosis tends to break down ... hence the daily mud-slinging.

Let's all see how common our interests are [or not] at Jamie's next neighborhood meeting on April 8th.

Interesting... the property was withdrawn...

"Here some more pricing from Infinity from a while back:
15D - 1.180M - $896/sqft
10D - 1.090M - $828/sqft
25F - 1.250M - $950/sqft
12F - 1.200M - $912/sqft
15H - 1.140M - $886/sqft
9A - 1.100M - $948/sqft"

Infinity Buyer,

This pricing is very informative. While I realize that inventory and pricing do change, we certainly would have taken a closer look at the Infinity at these price points. Not to beat a dead horse but during my first Sales office visit [early 2007] there were 'only 5 2bd/2ba left', priced from $1100-$1200 and during my January 2008 visit there were 'only 14 2BD/2BA' left, ranging from $1000-$1200, save for one treetops unit with a lovely Main Street view in the low $900 range. I would likely still have gone with ORH over the Infinity [white kitchens/bathroom cabinets that weren't appealing/poor views for the price versus Infinity's upside of deeded parking and better "location"] but it would have been a closer decision.

Interesting indeed about the listing being withdrawn. Can anyone confirm whether or not ORH is really going after these type of listings and trying to stop them?

Recent ORH buyer,

Here's more pricing from a previous posting. These look like 2006 pricing. There seems to be a misperception that prices at Infinity are so much more expensive than One Rincon. But as you can see, early pricing were pretty competitive. But definitely not as high as people thought.

Anyhow, I think both developments will do fine as long as the economy doesn't tank anymore than it already has. Infinity at 80 or 85 percent sold is still pretty spectacular. There are many, many other developments in the city that are less than 50% sold. Those are the ones that deserve our pity.
With it's location, amenities, parking, etc... Infinity should do fine in the long run.

http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2007/03/an_incomplete_history_of_prices_at_the_infinity.html

Phase I Tower (301 Main)
301 Main #6C (2/2) 1,716 sqft - $1,440,000 ($839/sqft)
301 Main #6G (2/2) 1,317 sqft - $1,220,000 ($926/sqft)
301 Main #8G (2/2) 1,317 sqft - $1,275,000 ($968/sqft)
301 Main #9F (2/2) 1,317 sqft - $1,160,000 ($881/sqft)
301 Main #10F (2/2) 1,317 sqft -$1,100,000 ($835/sqft)
301 Main #12F (2/2) 1,317 sqft - $1,200,000 ($911/sqft)
301 Main #16D (2/2) 1,317 sqft -$1,320,000 ($1,002/sqft)
301 Main #17F (2/2) 1,317 sqft - $1,350,000 ($1,025/sqft)
301 Main #17H (2/2) 1,317 sqft - $1,350,000 ($1,025/sqft)
301 Main #34F (2/2) 1,323 sqft - $1,980,000 ($1,497/sqft)

Mid-rise Buildings “C” (333 Main) and “A” (318 Spear)
333 Main #4E -$960K (2/2) 1,361 sqft ($705/sqft)
333 Main #6E - $1.12M (2/2) 1,361 sqft ($823/sqft)
333 Main #8B - $1.53M (3/3) 1,462 sqft ($1,047/sqft)
318 Spear #3B - $1.2M (2/2) 1,373 sqft ($874/sqft)