Another “plugged in” tipster attends the sales office grand opening for Radiance At Mission Bay and forwards a picture of the model, representative pricing, and mention of a flashy new website (features, floor plans, and amenities). From our tipster:
#310 – 1419sqft – $1,165,000
#317 – 1176sqft – $1,181,000
#409 – 1056sqft – $992,000
#410 – 1392sqft – $1,218,000
#510 – 1988sqft – $2,230,000
#602 – 1529sqft – $1,619,000
#607 – 1758sqft – $1,643,000
#704 – 1697sqft – $2,200,000
#804 – 1525sqft – $1,800,000
#905 – 961 sqft – $956,000
Also noted (but unconfirmed), “…from their availability chart, they look to be at least 50% reserved for the 99 unit complex. Mind boggling…” That being said, do keep in mind that these reservations are $10,000 fully refundable deposits (they should be moving to non-refundable deposits/purchase contracts in mid-April).
With regard to the two 16 story phase two towers, we reference another reader’s recent comment: “The builder has already stated if sales are weak [in the midrise buildings], he won’t build the second phase until the market picks up again.”
I was there last evening around 430pm. The sales staff was great but I was stunned to hear they are actually over 75% reserved. The agent stated they sold 44 units on Saturday so i am guessing they were about 30 sold on Sunday. They had 3 agents all with people still and they were not closing for 2 more hours. Stunning to see basically the entire building purchased in one weekend.
I am wondering if they are cooking their books in some manner. How is it possible that a building like this is 75% sold when most others in the area are far less? It does look nice, but I don’t see that it is that much nicer than comparable buildings in the area, or that it is priced so much better.
The units are well designed and very large. The exterior design is much better in the presentation model than what they were showing before.
BUT…………
What is up with the new website though? A guy sitting in the warm sun on a sandy beach (home page)?! This is the new San Francisco Mission Bay? Are they claiming this is what the neighborhood will be like or is this some re-used images from their projects in San Diego?
“How is it possible that a building like this is 75% sold when most others in the area are far less?”
That’s because nothing has actually sold. Placing a $10K refundable deposit is not the same thing as entering into a purchase contract. Not even close. The majority of these early reservations will fail to turn into actual contracts next month.
These prices are mind boggling. For that location which basically has nothing right now, paying over a $1000/sqft is just plain silly!
And the 2 decrepit piers right in front of Radiance, they will not be torn down or renovated anytime soon. The port authority which owns them has absolutely no funds to do any kind of improvement. It’ll be an eye sore for years and years…
And the sales staff said the whole area will need 5-7 years to develop fully, though there’s no guarantees anything will happen beyond this Radiance project. So basically, you’re gambling $1000/sqft that the area will someday be this paradise that will command what, $1200/sqft??
No thanks, I’d rather take my chances in Pac Heights, or even Infinity or SomaGrand where the prices are lower and they already have some semblance of an infrastructure and amenities….
“#317 – 1176sqft – $1,181,000”
See, I understand this. I purchased on around the 20th floor at that other development on 1st Street and Harrison – a 2/2 unit – 1238 sq ft for $995K. Why does Radiance think that they are going to get even close to this price?
One word to all of you naysayers: Quality.
Bosa has an international reputation for designing and building great stuff. Like some of the national homebuilders that don’t play in our little sandbox (e.g. Taylor Woodrow, Brookfield, Lennar) Bosa has buyers that believe in the company behind the product. Go to San Diego, Vancouver, Seattle and check them out. No games, no flash, just stylish homes with features people want at reasonable market prices.
Maybe it’s time for the locals to leave their “signature cocktails” and silly parties behind and concentrate on the real business of building and selling quality homes so that the more pragmatic among us can feel good about our home purchase (even at $1000 per foot) and not like we bought into some “image” program designed to disguise the mediocre proudct being foisted on us.
“One word to all of you naysayers: Quality.
Bosa has an international reputation for designing and building great stuff. Like some of the national homebuilders that don’t play in our little sandbox (e.g. Taylor Woodrow, Brookfield, Lennar) Bosa has buyers that believe in the company behind the prodcut. Go to San Diego, Vancouver, Seattle and check them out. No games, no flash, just stylish homes with features people want at reasonable market prices.”
Sure, I think anyone that’s seen the material they use agree it’s pretty high end stuff. And I don’t disagree Bosa builds quality properties. But the fact remains the location is crap. There’s nothing there. The piers are ugly and breaking down. The area just south is still very industrial and not changing. The closest amenities is King St or farther south.
And location should count just as much as quality. At a $1000+/sqft or more, one could buy some pretty luxurious condos in other more desirable and established parts of the city. Maybe in 5 years things will be different, but at the same time I don’t see these units appreciating much more than $1000/sqft. That’s the absolute peak of the market pricing.
I’m sure that these units are of good quality. However, with so many other high-end complexes coming into the marketplace right now, not to mention the others that are to be built over the next couple years, even if Bosa is far above others, I don’t see how they will command such a premium. I just don’t see SF homeowners saying, oh, I will wait for a Bosa development and will pay $200 more per square foot for one of these developments, in an inferior location, inferior looking building (compare it to Infinity, One Rincon, Millenium Tower, etc). Also, keep in mind that Bosa plans to build several other developments in the area with a total of nearly 2,000 units. How are they going to command $1,000 per square foot, when Infinity is only 50% sold and has been selling for almost a year?
Let us say this area were to turn into the Northern California Riviera (as foretold in the new flashy website), how much appreciation could one hope to get when you “pioneer” here at $1000 sq. ft?
5-7 years is somewhat aggressive. I have lived on Berry Street for 3 years and it only now barely starting to turn into some semblance of a neighborhood (with Philz coffee and Panera opening soon). I think the Radiance building plan looks nice, however, I don’t see any way they can justify their price per square foot. Quite frankly, I’m shocked they have received such a large number of deposits. Something doesn’t seem right.
Bosa definitely builds great condos and I’m sure the quality and finish of these will blow many of the other big developments currently under construction out of the water, but I can’t help but feel like too much of the future neighborhood development/appreciation is already being built into the prices. I’m extremely bullish on the southern parcel of Mission Bay but I do think we’re looking at 7-10 years until it really starts to shine. I’m more than willing to take the risk on an undeveloped neighborhood but I’ll want the reward as well.
And I have to agree with Hype Weary’s sentiments about signature cocktails, parties and image over substance.
Well I was at the grand opening and one agent brought a half dozen buyers and were given this elaborate presentation about how wonderful the place will be and how they we getting in on the ‘ground’ floor.
Ground floor at $1000/sqft? I found that hilarious…
Also, the $10k deposit will not be cashed. They will be returned when the reservations go into hard contracts in April. I say when it’s time for contract signing, 80% of these soft reservations will fall out…
There are two possibilities. Either a) Bosa are fudging their figures or b) most of the posters here don’t understand the market as well as they think they do. It may be a little bit of both.
From what I can see on the website Radiance is offering an unusual product for a new development in SF: well designed, unusually spacious units that don’t need “upgrades.” It’s all included down to the window shades. How refreshing.
The views from some of the units are likely to be pretty nice too. Lots of water and plenty of atmosphere. Remember, one guy’s “ugly” is another person’s “picturesque.” It may take a bit of sophistication to appreciate the nitty gritty of San Francisco Bay, but then it’s sophisticated buyers that this project is geared towards in the first place.
The location is great if you need to get to the airport a lot or if you work down the peninsula. And yes, it’s a bit of a trek to get into downtown SF – but no further than from Pacific Heights. And the light rail system is right there if you want to take public transit.
It’s a fresh, new project and it happened to hit the market at a good time. They will probably sell all the good units quickly and, like any other project, need another 12 months or so to sell the rest.
“I say when it’s time for contract signing, 80% of these soft reservations will fall out…”
Very likely. Even those who may want to buy may not be qualified, especially with the way the mortgage market is tightening up. Desire and ability are two different things.
The more I look at thease prices, the more I find them ridiculously overpriced. I thought the Infinity was overpriced, but this sets a new standard. At least the Infinity is near the Embarcadero and downtown (and is only 5 minutes further from the freeway for those who work in the South Bay). This is near…nothing.
I am not going to defend the pricing, but the perception of where this location is (or isn’t) is interesting. What if this project were built overlooking The Great Highway at Ocean Beach? That is “way out” and would still be a very interesting location. They are charging waterfront prices before the waterfront is developed and cleaned up, and that is what bothers me.
I’ve been watching this development for a few months now. When I first saw the floorplans I thought they were spectacular(I still do and the patio/balcony space are huge in some units).
I was thinking the waterfront units will go for $800/sqft tops given the desolate location and that it’s the first development in S Mission Bay.
Now at $1000/sqft, where does it leave all the other future developments in that area? Bosa owns several plots of land including the future 16 story towers next store. Will those bayfront units go for $1100/sqft now??
Is S Mission Bay going to turn into the most expensive neighborhood in SF? Is the market really that delusional to think that?
The prices are insane. For a very similar cost, a buyer could move into The Brannan or Watermark. Both of those buildings have better finishes, much better location, and are available for move in right now.
Not to mention, the floorplans are crazy. Why put a bunch of 1-bedroom units on the top floor? The PH should be 2 and 3 BR units. You don’t see the St. Regis building studios on the top floor.
I’m looking forward to the day that I’m such a sophisticated city dweller that I don’t need any restaurants or shops within easy walking distance of my home. My friends will boggle at the price I paid, but I can rebuff them with details of the sophisticated mortgage I had to take out to pay for my view of the water.
“Now at $1000/sqft, where does it leave all the other future developments in that area? Bosa owns several plots of land including the future 16 story towers next store. Will those bayfront units go for $1100/sqft now??”
No worries. They will sell for $1200/sqft or more and New Century Financial will provide the loans. The party must go on – everybody wants to live here.
I stopped by the sales office today. I was told that all of the units $850,000 and under have been reserved, and that they now have a waiting list to fill in the holes when buyers drop out.
The appointments are very nice. Most units have outdoor space which is in short supply, especially in SoMa.
Most units under $850,000 are not waterfront units or have bay views.
Interesting that folks are spending that much there for non-water view units…
But then again it’s only a reservation with no money down until contract time…
The thing that makes me furious is that even with the quality that may be going into this project, construction costs are not nearly what developers will claim they are. If a large company like BOSA cannot make a profit all the way down there without charging 1,000 sq. ft. then they are not as clever as some have claimed. This area was less than zero and now they want to claim it is Cow Hollow!
from 11:35 am
“One word to all of you naysayers: Quality.
Bosa has an international reputation for designing and building great stuff. Like some of the national homebuilders that don’t play in our little sandbox (e.g. Taylor Woodrow, Brookfield, Lennar) Bosa has buyers that believe in the company behind the product. Go to San Diego, Vancouver, Seattle and check them out. No games, no flash, just stylish homes with features people want at reasonable market prices.”
You sound like you work for Mr. Bosa. I’m familar w/ Bosa and i didn’t know they had an international reputation for high quality as you describe. The people i talk to rate them about average – i must be talking to the wrong people.
Larger units does not = higher quality – just more expensive. But i thinks it great that they have most of the units reserved at 900-1200 psf! The mission bay waterfront market must be hot!
Any blowjoe can walk into Radiance and give them a 10k check to reserve something. Bosa will not cash the check at all. There’s no cost until contract time in april.
Then I’ll be curious to see how many will back out when it comes to putting down the required 5% cash.
The price tag on these units is absurd. And, for those of us who have lived in SF for a some time, the “water views” at the Radiance aren’t what most of us have in mind when we think of bay views.
Looks like they will start the towers in a few weeks considering the’ve gotten offers of 50%?????
For this price-point, the Infinity sure looks like the best deal in town.
I was on the fence about a place at the infinity, but I have to say that after seeing the price point of all of these additional new developments, I will be revisitng the infinity this weekend. I was expecting these new ones to be cheaper and thus offer some competition, but no way I’m going to pay more or the same for them.
I too was expecting some of these place to be cheaper also and amazed at how much they are! I’ve been to almost every sales office and the prices they are asking is crazy. $1000/SF in Mission Bay with nothing around in nuts. I do see a great future for Mission Bay but not right now. If they’d price it somewhere in the $700-$800/SF, id be more willing to sit on it and hope the area will get develop sooner than later.
While i’m looking for a 1 bedroom in the $600k-$700k, I’d rather choose the Infinity over places like Soma Bland, Arterra, Hayes etc. The location is much better.
Too bad this place is so much, i wish i’d could afford this development!
Infinity certainly is one of the prettiest buildings in SF (esp viewing it in twilight).
For the same price/sqft, give or take a few $, I’d definitely take Infinity and it’s waterfront neighborhood over all these bland developments in inferior locations.
I gotta admit the Infinity is indeed a pretty building now that it’s taking shape. Was in that area over the weekend and caught the sunset reflecting off the building – nice sight. And no, I’m not an Infinity owner.
But it demonstrates somebody else’s point about how the Infinity and 1Rincon will become the new SOMA/Mission Bay litmus tests (at least until the Millenium opens). Anything else better have a good hook, be it location/price/platinum appliances, to generate interest in today’s market.
I’m an Infinity depositor/owner and I go by it every day on the way to work. I’ve got to say that all of these new developments being priced the same or more per sqft and the way the Infinity building is coming together even more beautiful that I had expected, makes me feel better and better about my purchase every day.
I’m not trying to do a sales pitch, but if I was still looking for a place, I’d apreciate if soeone told me to go take a look. So, go take a look at how the infinity is coming together, it is especially breathtaking if you can go see it on the same day as some of these other new developments.
I think 1Rincon is also great, but I’m not sure what is still available there.
It’s not even close comparing Radiance to Infinity. The 2 locations are like night and day. Both are close to the bay, but location-wise, Infinity wins hands down.
It’s incredible Bosa would even price Radiance the same or even higher than Infinity (though the quality is better).
Actually if I had to pick any development with the best location in Soma, S Beach, or Mission Bay I probably would go with Infinity with Brannan and Hill plaza a close second…
High-end or not, I still believe the pricing should be reasonable. These prices are among … the ridiculous (in my humble opinion), considering the flood of new developments. Sure, there is a lot of money out there, but that doesn’t mean that you’ve got to be stupid with it.
This is the “shoot for the moon” pricing strategy for all these developers. If you don’t succeed, you’ll still be among the stars.
Translation: Set the prices verging on ridiculously high (the moon), and if you can get people to buy it, great, that’s extra money in your pocket, and you can laugh all the way to the bank. So, say the market tanks a little. You shave off a couple hundred G’s, and you’re still (among the stars) within the price range that should be enough padding on your profit margin.
I’ll wait for some falling stars …
Enough already. Honestly, it is unfortunate, but the developers are loving S.F. buyers’ lack of experience with respect to buying pre-construction. The bottom line here, One Rincon sold units very cheaply, created hype with a multi-million $$ sales center, and over-inflated an already inflated market. Infinity is trying to ride the coattails and suddenly every condo developer in S.F. is trying to fetch $850-$1000 plus per foot. There is already too much supply, and it is only projected to increase. These so-called purchases are nothing of the sort–even a refundable deposit is absolutely meaningless. This market has a lot of correcting to do, sales have slowed quite dramatically–this is why you don’t see Rincon or Infinity releasing their next phases. There is very little market history with respect to high-rise development in S.F. Be wise and be patient-sit on the sidlines until even more inventory, a slowing economy, and the subprime woes have moderated the market-very late ’07/early ’08. And for God’s sake don’t spend $900 per sq. ft. for the SoMa Grand-guaranteed you will regret it. My guess is that prices regress to mid 2005 levels.
OH! But then again … my mistake. I guess I’m just not sophisticated enough to recognize what a bargain and the quality I get for a $1M 961 sqft shoebox on the nineth floor. *slaps forehead* D’oh!
Thinking about pricing in some of BOSA’s other projects makes me wonder why when they arrive in San Francisco they need to charge more for the same product they built in other locations with LAND VALUES SIMILAR OR HIGHER.
As an example, their project in Irvine, is built in an area far more developed with land costs far more expensive than the Industrial no-man’s land of Radiance, yet these towers are priced at lower per sq. ft. costs than Radiance. Nobody likes Irvine including me, but at least that project is near the airport, shops, hotels and restaurants as well as corporate headquarters and transportation. The Irvine Commercial-Corporate district has some of the highest land costs in California at the moment with more Fortune 500 companies than S.F. as well as more high paying jobs, so please spare me the nonsense about “all the money” up here for that is not what caused BOSA to price Radiance the way it currently is.
I wonder if the developer is trying to be “smart.” Price the place too high, then when the market takes a hit, take a hit and you end pricing them where you originally would like them to be while also maintaining the appearance that the condo has been discounted with the market.
i went to the sales office last week and realized some negatives that aren’t very apparent:
1. really high HOA’s – min. at $640 per month to about mid $700’s per month. compare this to some others which start around mid $300’s per month.
2. the units wouldn’t be ready for move in until around march-april-may 2008.
but it did seem like this development had some pretty high end classy features that came as standard, like all the bathroom and kitchen finishes, which include ss frig. and other appliances as well as washer/dryer, hardwood flooring in all living areas, etc.
NOTHING comes standard. The upgrades have already been built into the price.
Why would someone put down a $10,000 deposit on a unit they have no intention of buying? Unless they are being strongarmed in the most offensive way (which you can be sure would have been reported on this site) it’s just pointless, refundable or not.
I still say that either Bosa is being less than honest about the number of units that are reserved or the market is behaving in a way that is different from how most posters think it should behave.
I also say that Bosa is offering an unusual product. Take the $1M 961 SF shoebox. I assume the reference is to unit 905. This is the only example of a developer-built 1 BR that I have seen in SF that has a wall of windows along the long dimension of the L/D Room instead of at the end, like a tunnel. This makes a huge difference to the perception of the space, to say nothing of the light level. The unit has tons of closet space in the bedroom and a utility room sized hall closet. The layout is extremely efficient with very little wasted space. Though only 961 SF, I’ll bet it feels way bigger. And it should have some pretty nice views.
I’m not saying this is where I’d like to live, but I can understand the appeal. And I’m not saying the project is perfectly designed (Kinda brain dead to put that exit stair on the elevation that has the best views. This happens on the 8th and 9th floors – where the views are best!) But at least some of the units appear to have appealing qualities.
Pricing real estate by the square foot turns it into a commodity, which it is not. Utility, efficiency, quality of natural light, view, location, room proportion can make a small unit much more appealing than a larger one, even at the same (or higher) price.
“Why would someone put down a $10,000 deposit on a unit they have no intention of buying?”
Someone that has absolutely no intention of buying would not, but someone that’s even the slightest bit interested might as well. It’s a free option to see what happens with interest in the development, with the market, etc. Can’t decide between two units? Might as well make a deposit on both. Think your husband/wife/partner/client/daughter/son might have some interested but is out of town? Might as well leave a check. And so on and so forth.
“Utility, efficiency, quality of natural light, view, location, room proportion can make a small unit much more appealing than a larger one, even at the same (or higher) price.”
Amen.
“Why would someone put down a $10,000 deposit on a unit they have no intention of buying?”
Why? Because unlike some other developments Bosa has no intention of cashing the check. You can walk in, pick out any unit (even the 2 million dollar one), give them a check that has $0.00 in the account and voila, you’ve locked down a million dollar condo. That’s why.
I went by to check the recent developments of the Radiance project week before last. It appears that most of the units were on hold with the exception of the first floor three-story town homes and the fourth floor (patio level) units. The agent indicated that she thought they would be receiving their white papers the following Tuesday. At this point all potential buyers with reservations would be required to sign a purchase and sale agreement.
When I enquired about the firmness of these reservations, the agent told me that she believed that over 80% of units would enter into a PSA. I indicated that she would be lucky if 20% of the units entered in to a PSA given San Francisco’s current slump in condos and the over development of the Mission Bay Area. She felt confident that given the developer’s reputation that she was correct. I could be wrong but I think one of us has been sitting in only a swimsuit on a beach in San Francisco recently-this would cause a mind numbing experience after all.
Personally I think these units are about $200-$300 k over priced given the current market. At over $2.3 million for the most expensive unit, in a condo community without a pool (but there is a fire pit to thaw anyone out from sitting on the beach), I believe you will see these units on the market for a while until adjustments are made in the list price or concessions are offered.
Now that the white papers have been delivered, does anyone know how many reservations dropped out vs turned in PSA?
The prices do seem out of line but then looking at the crazy prices still being paid for some SOMA lofts…
Lofts in SOMA are running in the $500-700 range. These condos are $850-1375 psf
I was over at 855 Folsom, Yerba Buena Lofts, and its running $850- $951 sq ft…
Where are you seeing the $500 psf…
thanks.
Just talked to our agent with the developer, we just found out that the units are heated by tacky wall heaters! What I have heard todate is that everything would be high end, nothing like spending over a million dollars and having the place heated something that looks like it belongs in a housing project.
We were told that the units would have radiant heat from below the hardwood floor. We will be looking for a major price reduction if the developer is going to present this as a finished product!
Radiance just listed a beautiful unit 606 on MLS…does this mean that maybe sales are not going so well and that they will be “releasing” or listing more units on MLS (sort of like the 310 Townsend or 325 berry, xxx berry listings we are seeing)…
If so, then do you experienced buyers here think that it would be better to wait or to try to negotiate some sort of discount? (I’m interested in purchasing, but not this super unit!)
thanks.
Well, I was one of those that reserved a Radiance unit on the second opening day, and grabbed the 2 bed/den high floor, best waterfront 180 degree view unit in the building. Two months later I signed the contract and we can’t wait to move in. As my old father-in-law once said…”there is only so much land on the water, and when its gone…” All those so-called waterfront condo’s are blocks from the Bay. This is on it. Admittedly, it will take some time for the area to fully develop into the Chestnut Street thing, but we are moving in to live there for the longer-term, and so we will be looking forward to seeing the changes around us. In the meantime, we will be enjoying perhaps the best on-the-water and City skyline view condo in the City.
I too, like poster Al, have been under contract on what am I’m thrilled to say will be my long term retirement residence by the bay.
I love outdoor space and views, having received both with my 1 bedroom with its’ own 800 sq ft (yes I said 800) terrace facing the new greenbelt/park. My unit also has 35 linear feet of floor to ceiling windows- a substantial trade off for the long narrow one bedrooms in other units where the kitchen/ding and living all line up and look out one set of windows. My south facing condo will be flooded with light all day long.
Having been a Realtor for 20 years (admittedly not in SF), I see the uniqueness of the building: the amount of open space, the small number of units and the waterfront location, plus the south side faces that rare commodity in SF, green space! So what if it will take time to develop it’s full character. While I ma waiting, I will enjoy walks to the University and it’s great new architecture and the incredible fitness center there; sipping coffee on my terrace while looking at the water, and being able to converse in a normal voice while doing so; getting on my bike or rollerblades at my doorstep and heading towards the Embarcadero, etc. etc..
I am tired of the endless comparisons to other buildings that deafen you with freeway/bridge traffic noise & assault you with gas fumes (Watermark and One Rincon. Also, I have shopped, and at any luxury building, the Hoa dues are above $600. There is nothing near the $300 mark one poster stated. And no matter what, I would rather be here than shoeboxed in along King or Berry.
Suffice it to say, to each his own.
Lastly, I will gladly be here than at the Potrero for almost the same price /sq ft, in what are the most ‘apartmenty’ units I have ever seen. I will bike or Muni to Whole Foods, thank you.
Seems like alot of posters prefer the location of the Infinity over Radiance and I can certainly see why they might think that. Those same posters are close-minded, however, if they can’t understand that some people might actually disagree with them. The way I see is that the area around the Infinity is predominately developed which is obviously a good thing NOW. What that means, however, is that we won’t see as dramatic changes around the Infinity as in South Mission Bay. All said and done, Infinity has a better location NOW but the Radiance will be a better neighborhood in a few years.
Some people are more willing to wait for that to happen than others and more willing to pay a premium for that to happen. Others are not so willing. Who are you naysayers out there to say that your view is the ONLY correct one existing.