July 1, 2013

Illy Aims To Open Up The Street From Where Starbucks Was Denied


While Starbucks’ application to renovate and occupy the former retail space at 2201 Market Street was shot down by San Francisco’s Planning Commission in May, Italian powerhouse illy has filed for permits to renovate the former Mirrors & Frames shop at 2349 Market Street and open an Espressamete illy in its place.

Roaring Donkey’s application to convert the space into a bar was put on hold last year.

First Published: July 1, 2013 12:45 PM

Comments from "Plugged In" Readers

There are less than 10 Espressamente cafes in the US, so this couldn't *possibly* be a problem...

Posted by: James at July 1, 2013 2:14 PM

Except that Wendy Mogg, owner of Sweet Inspiration, is on the board of the Castro CBD. I'm sure some other excuse will be found to deny a competitor from opening.

Posted by: wc1 at July 1, 2013 2:22 PM

From their site:

"It’s an experience illy wants to share with the world, and one that gave rise to espressamente illy: a global network of cafès uniting the genuine Italian coffee bar with local design sensibilities. This ambitious project – 200 major cities in 34 countries, and growing fast – brings illycoffee and products designed to enhance coffee pleasure to passionate coffee lovers seeking to refuel, reflect, or just relax."


Posted by: Anon at July 1, 2013 2:41 PM

I'd like to see Illy in this space.
We need to take a very close look at protectionist behavior by individual CBD/DTNA members - I understand one of the local rags is working on shining a spotlight into just that. Can't wait...

Posted by: brid at July 1, 2013 3:19 PM

I've been to their locations in Chicago and Charles du Gaulle airport and they are very popular. I hope this does not get blocked, but there must be more than 10 locations worldwide, so would the CBD consider this a chain retail business also?

Posted by: anon94123 at July 1, 2013 4:10 PM

I suppose this means that some savvy burrito/Mexican/fast/fresh outlet without big name support will snap up the Home space for a new neighborhood joint with a tequila bar. If it was good enough for Starbucks and Chipotle...

Posted by: mktwatcher at July 1, 2013 4:45 PM

There is one in SF already -- near my office, in the walk-thru plaza of the Mandarin. It is ok at best, as expected from a mass-producer of blah coffee that is sold in cans at Safeway. Definitely nothing to get excited about -- though I have no problem with it opening there (nor did I have a problem with Starbucks, which is no worse).

Posted by: shza at July 1, 2013 4:59 PM

Philz coffee is becoming weak as dishwater, Peets is now doing syrupy summery concoctions (keeping up with you know who) so I vote yes. I understood their coffee is v good but now need to check out the one on Nob Hill (after reading above post). There's really no market for lousy coffee in this area. The area will also benefit from a less intense experience like Coffee Bar on Florida St that is as much a work space as it is a coffee place. All in time.

Posted by: Invented at July 1, 2013 8:36 PM

Philz coffee has a dozen different coffees and blends at any given time, Invented. Weak, strong, light, dark, and even some world class top shelf stuff like blue mountain. Your post was silly.

Posted by: Anowned at July 1, 2013 10:07 PM

Philz Coffee is probably the best coffee I didn't make myself I've ever had and remains so. Indeed they do have many, many choices so obviously I'm talking about the one I've been drinking for a couple of years now which hasn't changed.

That said, I think Illy in this location is appropriate. I probably won't patronize it, but I can't object to it.

Posted by: BTinSF at July 1, 2013 11:48 PM

San Francisco was recently rated by Travel and Leisure Magazine NUMBER ONE in snobbishness and this thread shows why. So much concern on whether or not coffee sold in Paris and Rome might be good enough for the Castro? The Castro is NO gourmet ghetto. Am I the only one who thinks it is absurd that so many feel they must sign off on whether or store is "good enough" for San Francisco?

BTW- San Francisco was also rated the dirtiest American City. Perhaps we should spend less time worrying about coffee and more time fixing the homeless issue, MUNI, and the trash on streets?

Posted by: FedUp at July 2, 2013 4:23 AM

I like the Espressamente on Battery. Really nice decor, good service and good selection of sandwiches and snacks. The coffee itself is a nice medium body.

Posted by: fred at July 2, 2013 7:35 AM

Not to defend my 'silly" comments about coffee -- Travel and Leisure would also have the world believe SF is preferred over Paris as a travel destination. Having lived in Paris, I for one am befuddled.

Posted by: Invented at July 2, 2013 9:26 AM

What @FedUp said...

Posted by: DanRH at July 2, 2013 9:58 AM

FedUp et al, to the extent you're directing that at my comment, note that I said I have no problem with it opening in that location. Just tempering the earlier comments that seemed to assume that because illy is European, it's somehow automatically high-quality. It's basically the Euro equivalent of Starbucks: better than diner/convenience-store/Sweet Inspiration coffee; worse than coffee you'd actually seek out. And obviously better than an empty storefront.

And I guarantee there are plenty of dirtier U.S. cities than SF. You really think some place like Detroit is better kept up?

Posted by: shza at July 2, 2013 10:16 AM

I suspect that "dirtiest" is a euphemism for "most homeless people."

The same way that "no chain stores" is a euphemism for "local independent store owners defend their turf."

Posted by: jlasf at July 2, 2013 10:58 AM

Per the namelink, at least as of a year ago, SF was not even in the top 3 in California for homeless people per capita. Even San Jose is higher. Tampa is #1.

Posted by: shza at July 2, 2013 11:04 AM

So the "Philz is becoming as weak as dishwater" comment wasn't silly? OK then. perhaps you might tell everyone why you drink dishwater and/or use it within a coffee strength scale. LOL.

Posted by: Anowned at July 2, 2013 11:12 AM

Explain to me again how this coffee joint is related to the homeless problem? Are you saying if Illy is approved it means no action on homelessness? Or is it the other way around?

Posted by: gentrified is a dirty word for clean at July 2, 2013 4:16 PM

Well, it looks like the Planning Commission and Planning Department may be setting themselves up to get sued if they approve this "Formula Retail" on Upper Market.

Posted by: Karl B at July 3, 2013 7:14 AM

Please please approve it. Illy has the best espresso in town. The people they employ in SF are also very personable and professional. There's a good reason they are expanding: good coffee and great team.

As soon as they open, maybe the Castro dwellers will start developing a taste for good coffee...

I didn't shed a tear at Starbuck's rejection (even though I think any kind of business should be allowed as long as they respect the zoning laws), but Illy would be a great addition.

Posted by: lol at July 3, 2013 8:03 AM

Another high-end coffee shop opening up in SF. Wow, breaking news! Hopefully they serve the good stuff like you get in Italy and not the swill foisted on us here.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 3, 2013 9:02 AM

@lol: "Best espresso in town"?

Reading the comments on this post are starting to make me think Socketsite has been sold to The Onion.

The Castro can do better. Just because the lack of decent coffee in the area makes it deserve a F grade doesn't mean you put in a D grade business. Let's all have higher expectations for a great neighborhood.

Posted by: Anon at July 3, 2013 10:56 AM

What better espresso place do you suggest? Not the fancy-drip-drip-drip $5 rip-offs, but real italian espresso? The barristas in North Beach are no more Italian. The big chains' sludge can only be sipped with 400 calories of fat and corn syrup. Where's a Frenchman gotta go for his fix except Illy's?

Posted by: lol at July 3, 2013 11:28 AM

I just make Nespresso at home. My 4 year old loves the shiny metal capsules in all those colors.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 3, 2013 11:29 AM

lol, the espresso at Ritual or Bluebottle is significantly better than Illy, which is essentially Starbucks-grade. Methinks your nostalgia for your European days of yore is slanting your view here.

Repeat proviso: Despite my low opinion of Illy's product, that's no reason it shouldn't get approved. It should (so should have Starbucks and Chipotle).

Posted by: shza at July 3, 2013 12:07 PM

shza, I get my refresher course at a rate of a few months a year in the City of Lights, thank you very much. No "it used to better in my day" for me, my taste buds are up to date. I have also spent a lot of time in Italy though not in the past 3 years. Nespresso is very decent, and their Grant Street location is my second fave when I do not feel like Illy's. Plus you get bused by a cute French girl some days ;)

Posted by: lol at July 3, 2013 12:40 PM

shza, I am not sure where you have the impression that Illy is a mediocre coffee. When it comes to espresso in Italy Illy is constantly in the top 3 for espresso roast (Trieste has a very long history for coffee roasting. The other two brands That Italians love are Segafredo and Lavazza (and somewhat Kimbo in Naples). Of course I would not use Illy for any drip kind of coffee, but that is another story.

Posted by: Coppernob at July 8, 2013 2:39 PM

Well if you pay $5 to see your individual drip coffee being made (drip, drip, drip...) by a blasé bearded genius artist, then you're probably not gonna like very quick and strong $2.25 espresso. When I talked about the concept to a friend in France, his response was "les couillons!" (suckers).

Posted by: lol at July 8, 2013 3:34 PM

Coppernob, I'm not sure what that's supposed to prove. To the extent you're citing simple popularity within Italy, I'm sure Starbucks is, likewise, "the #1 espresso" in the US (and a Big Mac "the #1 burger") -- if anything, the large scale popularity is an indicator of mediocrity.

In any event, I went to the Illy by my office yesterday, just to make sure I wasn't misremembering and talking out of my ass on this. I had a macchiato. It was better than Starbucks/Peet's, but was considerably worse than anything I've had at any Bluebottle location or at Ritual.

Obviously, the quality of an espresso pull depends in large part on the operator, so a macchiato in an Esspressamente in Italy may well be considerably better than what they're serving in SF -- it shouldn't surprise you that the people who work at niche aficionado spots like Blue Bottle tend to be more obsessive "coffee people" than the joker who got a job wearing a red apron at a global corporate behemoth in the financial district.

But hey: better than Starbucks! Am I forgiven now?

Posted by: shza at July 9, 2013 11:54 AM


Starbucks sells fat sugary drinks that happen to contain coffee. No wonder they please the country so much. Starbucks could put their coffee in paste form from plastic dispensers like the various flavors or imitation-chocolate glop and no one would notice. They'd have a huge boost in profit but of course we would miss the pointless dance of the barrista wasting their energy at making bad espresso shots.

Now Italy has a very deep coffee culture. You cannot fool them with bitter sludge. Illy succeeds because it is good.

Posted by: lol at July 9, 2013 12:11 PM

The U.S. has a very deep beef culture. That doesn't mean McDonalds makes a great burger.

Blue bottle and Ritual are much better.

Posted by: anon at July 9, 2013 12:15 PM

McD caters to America's addiction to value in food instead of quality.

I pay my $2.75 (double) @ Illy's for coffee I used to drink in Italy. Ritual and BB just don't cut it.

Posted by: lol at July 9, 2013 12:20 PM

lol, your arguments at this point amount to (a) Europe is different/better/more discerning than the US, (b) thus anything that Europe mass-produces is a fortiori of great quality, and (c) btw, I'm European, so I have unassailable credentials on this topic.

Hard to have any kind of reasonable exchange.

Posted by: shza at July 9, 2013 12:38 PM

Formula retail tests:


It seems like Illy is formula retail.

Seems like Starbucks failed on formula retail rules.


The Illy application better include a big rainbow flag in their rendering, that's their only hope. Prove fashionable Italian bona fides and co-opt il ghaytto. !Buona Fortuna!

Posted by: soccermom at July 9, 2013 12:51 PM


The same would apply for Americans visiting a bagel shop overseas. There's good bagel, and there's bad bagel. Others can appropriate the bagel culture and make it to their taste, but if an american enters a bagel shop in euroland and sees a bagel that differs from his own, he'll scoff at the poor bagel. In that case Americans make the standard.

For Espressos, no other country other than Italy sets the standard.

Posted by: lol at July 9, 2013 1:46 PM

Again, lol, the most mass-produced bagels in the US (the analog to Illy & Lavazza) are bad bagels. Speaking as a former NYCer. It will be the same for pretty much any class of product you can think of, even in the country "that sets the standard."

In other words, I have no doubt that I could find an espresso in Italy that is superior to any espresso I've had in SF. But I guarantee it won't be made from mass-produced Illy or Lavazza beans.

Posted by: shza at July 9, 2013 1:58 PM

Coffee snobs. I can't stand the taste of blue bottle. It's lukewarm and it's weak.

Posted by: 94114 at July 9, 2013 2:18 PM

shza, good point with NYers and bagels.

One major cultural specificity you need to take into account is that French and Italians are used to quality mass products.

A French baguette for instance will be very good (at least to the French) in 75% of bakeries, because every baker has gone through the same high quality schooling. Then there's espresso and Italians. They are used to a certain standard accessible to everyone everywhere, which means the most common brands will deliver very decent quality in terms of bean quality and roasting.

Yes, I might be culturally conservative when it comes to coffee. Maybe my palate is too set and I cannot appreciate the new stuff. But millions over millions still flock to the "old continent" for a taste of the good things their ancestors left behind.

Posted by: lol at July 9, 2013 3:22 PM

I once bought a pound of coffee from Ritual and it was horrible. I mean truly disgusting. It tasted, frankly, rancid, like the beans had been sitting for far too long in a warehouse somewhere and gone bad. I've honestly never had a worse cup of coffee than that place; why it is so popular escapes me.

At least Nespresso, for all its no doubt myriad flaws and imperfections, is consistent.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 9, 2013 3:26 PM

Exactly. Mass market producers care mainly about price and consistency. Most of the mass market, even in Europe, doesn't have a sophisticated palate.

All sorts of growing conditions can affect taste and it's impossible to source quality in large quantity so the Starbucks/Illy/Nespresso answer is to source mediocre beans and let the heavy roasting dictate the taste because it's easy to control the roasting process.

Posted by: anon at July 9, 2013 3:37 PM

anon, really? You know very little about mass market and palate in Italy or France. Then again, my America friends in the EU will try and transpose their vision of their own society on another culture. Spend money to get away from the plebe.

For instance in Paris wealthy visitors will all stick together in the postcard areas, afraid of the unknown. The US is very class-conscious and needs distinctive foods, drinks, lifestyle to show a social status. We have problems understanding when social class can be organized differently in an other culture.

Just to say that the Hoi Polloi in Italy are drinking a really good coffee. But I am sure there's a cafe somewhere that caters to the snobbish visitor doing his Grand Tour. And he'll get Illy in gilded porcelaine.

Posted by: lol at July 9, 2013 3:55 PM

I had great coffee almost everywhere in Italy; I usually went to pretty anonymous-looking little bars where I could get a shot of espresso for about 0,80-1,20 Euros. It was not only cheaper but vastly better than what I can get in this country. I never even considered the brand of coffee beans because it was all pretty darned great.

Over here, my standout favorite is still Kicking Horse. Its so trendy y'all have never even heard of it.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 9, 2013 4:09 PM

I can't think of another American city that could care this much about what type of coffee store it would "allow" into a neighborhood.

You would think there are no larger problems that may require solving in San Francisco!

(For the record, I would rather be sitting in a Café table on Piazza Navona drinking Illy admiring a Bernini fountain than sitting in a Castro Market Street Parklet surrounded by hipsters drinking 6 dollar slow dripped coffee from some cult brand.

Posted by: FedUp at July 9, 2013 4:10 PM

Oh, it matters. A lot. Just not to me. I don't live anywhere near the Castro.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 9, 2013 4:22 PM

What's with the hostility toward drip coffee?

Posted by: NJ at July 9, 2013 5:03 PM

The coffee in France is simply not on the same plane of excellence as the coffee in Italy, or even for that matter, the United States. The regular 1.10 Euro cafe one gets in Paris, while superior to anything similar one can get in the UK, is a weak imitation of the normal bar espressos of Italy. And most places that care about coffee in the US offer satisfying espressos, not to mention the strength of drip coffees versus americanos.

Posted by: Anowned at July 9, 2013 5:41 PM

@NJ Because...


Posted by: soccermom at July 9, 2013 7:50 PM

I think the same could be said for the food in France compared to Italy. Italy is just better when it comes to: coffee, food, clothes, cars and old stuff.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 9, 2013 7:51 PM

Nearly every food critic and chef in the world would disagree with you on that, Jimmy. Rome has some excellent restaurants, but the quantity of superb restaurants in Paris still overwhelms pretty much any other city in the world.

But you already disqualified yourself from this thread with your posts about the high quality of the stale, pre-ground fast-food-style capsules of coffee you drink.

You're not helping the peninsula's reputation for being as uncultured as fly-over country, just more boorish, outspoken, and wealthy.

Posted by: shza at July 9, 2013 10:29 PM

Coffee is better in Italy than France, agreed. The French still haven't 100% fully converted to Arabica. Some cafes are still serving a blend of Arabica and Robusta, the nasty bean type inherited from the old colonial world. Hey, they have to help out the countries they messed up, right?

But as far as food is concerned, France and Italy I think are in the first 2, with France as #1 due to the richness of its regional diversity. Cheeses are better. Wines are better. Ingredients in general are better. Cooks are highly educated and very sharp. A cousin of mine is a chef and his training was as challenging as my engineering degree. Long hours, physical pain, frustration, all overcome by perseverance.

France has the chance of being in the "juuust riiight" zone geographically, between Atlantic and Mediterranean, Latin and Germanic, with very diverse climate without too many extremes. Diversity and balance are essential in taste.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 8:22 AM

Bistecca alla Fiorentina.

That's all I gotta say. Screw the French.

Admittedly, I have about two thousand dollars worth of Chambertin Grand Cru in my cellar. Bought at the vineyard after a private tasting, no less.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 9:36 AM

Jimmy is showing his true colors. Snobbish biased hater.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 9:39 AM

Italy as #2 food country? No, sorry. Not nearly enough variety in Italy. Spain absolutely trounces Italy, and both are trounced by France.

Posted by: anon at July 10, 2013 9:43 AM

Screw you too, lol. French is my second language! I do a lot of business there. You know nothing about me. I just don't especially like the food.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 9:44 AM

Last week I had a bottle of Chambertin and a grilled pollo burrito from Chipotle. Delicious.

Posted by: soccermom at July 10, 2013 9:49 AM

@soccermom: now we're talkin'! Hopefully that was a dairy-free chicken burrito... I'm violently allergic to milk products.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 9:50 AM

Lacking in arguments, and resorting to insults. Stay classy my friend.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 9:51 AM

It is a matter of opinion. Let's all just agree that yours is wrong.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 9:52 AM

After insulting an entire country, Jimmy looks around for a straw to grasp and attempts to change the subject.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 9:54 AM

You haven't made a very compelling case so far.

Jimmy's argument #1: Screw the French
Jimmy's argument #2: Bistecca alla Fiorentina

Well, I will admit this has some kind of humorous charm, but not for reasons you think of.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 10:00 AM

Is this coming from the same twit who wrote: Jimmy is showing his true colors. Snobbish biased hater.?

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 10:01 AM

Please see FedUp's earlier comments:

"I can't think of another American city that could care this much about what type of coffee store it would "allow" into a neighborhood."

Posted by: 94114 at July 10, 2013 10:04 AM

Snobbish: you've been trying to show off your expensive taste all along the thread. And failed to distinguish quality from price.

Biased: you claim Italian cuisine is superior to the French. When having to explain yourself, you quote ONE dish that you can find at an Olive Garden and then add "screw the French". LOL.

Hater: well, you made your bed, now sleep in it.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 10:09 AM

@lol: you CANNOT get Bistecca alla Fiorentina at Olive Garden, or anywhere in this country. The dish is made from Chianina cattle, the meat from which is not exported to Olive Garden. See? You don't know everything, or really anything, about a really good steak.

Chambertin Grand Cru has been recognized as the King of wines for centuries, even before DRC became wildly popular and overpriced. It is certainly better than any Pinot Noir available from the US hands-down.

Of course you don't appear to know that either.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 10:15 AM

You love one dish and one wine. What a boring life you have.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 10:21 AM

Those are examples. You're pitiful (and perhaps a little slow in the head).

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 10:23 AM

I could try and pull the measuring scale and one-up with Jimmy (Exposed Hater). I could tell him where I am today, in what 8th arrondissement restaurant I ate for lunch earlier, what 2003 wine I pulled yesterday from the vaulted cellar of my pied-a-terre for my guests.

But I won't ;)

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 10:26 AM

Yeah, ok, because you expect us to believe that you live in Paris and spend your time posting on this little website. Puh-leeze. 2003 is a lousy year for Burgundy don't you think? I seem to recall it was a record hot year and the wines spoiled quickly.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 10:40 AM

Someone doesn't understand the meaning of Pied-a-Terre.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 10:42 AM

It would be literally translated as "foot-on-ground". And you don't have one!

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 10:46 AM

If that makes you feel better about yourself. Well, the sun is setting. Beautiful light.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 10:50 AM

I guess the beauty of the internet is that we can all be billionaires who drive Bugattis and take leisurely two-month vacations in Europe every summer.

Who goes to Paris in July and August anyway? Tourists, that's who. You can keep it; I'll visit in the fall when civilization has returned.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 10:55 AM

we can all be billionaires who drive Bugattis and take leisurely two-month vacations in Europe every summer.

Says the guy who has been dropping names all along this thread. That's pretty insecure from what I am told. But I guess everyone has his own way to cope with inadequacy.

Someone goes in Paris in July and August when his expensive furnished rental just got freed up. I do that once or twice a year. And 2 months indeed, how did you guess. You repeated many times I know nothing about you. Well man, likewise.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 11:03 AM

Riddle me this... If your little rental is so great, then why is it vacant all summer which is the height of the tourist-trapping season?

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 11:17 AM

Because I choose to go there. Not everything is about money. But I am not silly neither: my place in SF gets rented for good money. It takes a while to get the kinks ironed out, but I have been between 2 countries (now 3) for 15 years now.

If you did your homework and checked my former San Fronzischeme posts, you'd know all that already. That would mean you have followed my posts during the switch from bear to bull in 2010. But you jump to conclusions pretty fast apparently. Simple: 1 - read. 2 - post.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 11:34 AM

Say what?? You know how many "lols" there are on this site? Wow, great, you can manage two rental properties at once. Congratulations, that must feel like a great accomplishment.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 11:45 AM

Okay children, enough, both of you go to your side of the internets and stay there until you can behave.

Posted by: Rillion at July 10, 2013 11:50 AM

Yet another about-face. Only one lol as far as I know. Once someone impersonated me and got flagged out.

Seriously, what are you trying to prove exactly? There's always going be someone with more money, a better lifestyle, more taste, etc... I played your game just for kicks, because I know exactly where I stand, but you seem to need to measure yourself with others...

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 12:21 PM

War! Italy versus France
civet butt kopi luwak
Sanka nostalgia

Posted by: The Milkshake of Despair at July 10, 2013 1:12 PM

Oh, we're proving that Italian coffee, food, cars, clothes and antiquities are better than French ones.

Its a pretty self-evident point, but somehow you steered the discussion towards a series of ad hominem attacks and are as yet unrepentant.

I'll be here waiting for your apology.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 1:18 PM

Wow, bad faith is a sure sign of insecurity.

Oh, we're proving that Italian coffee, food, cars, clothes and antiquities are better than French ones.

1 - WE? Like royal WE? LOL!
2 - You are on your own on food, obviously. No-one is supporting your point of view.

Its a pretty self-evident point

No it is not. You haven't proven anything, and are drawing conclusions based on you own posts. The hallmark of dishonesty.

but somehow you steered the discussion towards a series of ad hominem attacks

What? Someone insults my native country by saying things like "screw the french". That's hate speech and I called you out on it. Had you said something similar against Asians or Latinos, you'd have been booted out in 2 seconds. But the French will never protest because they know this hatred tells more about the speaker than anything else.

and are as yet unrepentant.

Repenting would imply some falsehood. So far the only insults and untruths come from one silly poster.

You know what? I'll stop this right away. Hate speech is hate speech.

I'll be here waiting for your apology.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 1:30 PM

And again I broke rule #14.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 1:44 PM

How is it possible to prove anything about personal tastes?

And hate speech... puhleeze. Cry me a river grenouille.

Methinks he doth protest too much.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 1:45 PM

One post Jimmy says "We're proving", the next he's asking "How to prove".

You can't make that stuff up.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 1:58 PM


(A practice that should be close to your heart ...)

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 2:09 PM

You lose then

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 2:16 PM

If that makes you happy! I mean, you just, theoretically, wasted an entire evening in Paris on this inanity.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 2:19 PM

Not wasted, not wasted. Beating a troll to a pulp is actually pretty entertaining. And I still have 80 other nights to play with.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 2:31 PM

you're again assuming things. Multi-tasking, look-it-up.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 2:33 PM

You sat at a computer, in Paris, all night. Now who's the loser?

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 2:38 PM

Again, you're making assumptions. You've been doing that and been proven wrong each and every time.

And yet every time, you make an about face and throw another wrong assumption. It's hard to follow you when you make stuff up at that rate.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 2:47 PM

I think the only thing I can say with total certainty, other than the coffee in Italy is better than France, is that *nothing* has been proven by this discussion thread.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 2:59 PM

And yet again going around the issue and diverting from proven misstatements, contradictions and other about-faces. But to your credit you clumsily got back to coffee.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 3:06 PM

When it comes to coffee, I am totally certain that the balance of opinion is in my favor.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 3:11 PM

Nope. I always said Italian espresso was better. And the balance was towards that opinion. One could write a book about your fabrications.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 3:21 PM

Well I also said that Italian was better. So, no disagreement.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 3:30 PM

Then we agree on that.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 3:45 PM

Well that was certainly a heartwarming dénouement.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 4:00 PM

You guys should go get burritos at Chipotle.

Oh wait.

Posted by: soccermom at July 10, 2013 4:07 PM

That doesn't take you off the hook for unbridled French bashing. This is 2013, not 2003.

Please make one experiment: take MUNI at rush hour, and speak your sentences out loud substituting "French" with "Chinese" or "Mexican". I'll make sure your grave has fresh flowers at least once a year for Bastille Day.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 4:10 PM

I already had a burrito bowl for lunch. That's about as much Tex-Mex as I can take in a day.

I'm gonna go get some Italian food tonight.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 4:12 PM

Ok, well since you won't let this one die, French is a nationality, like English or Canadian, or Sahrawi. Asian or Latino is an ethnicity.

The French have been the butt of English jokes and derogatory remarks since the beginning of time. Ever heard of "the French disease" (syphilis), "the French leave" (aka ghosting), a "French letter" (aka un préservatif)? The list is practically endless.

Sorry to say it but your country has been coming up short since Napoleon assumed the throne. Its not hate speech when it's true.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 4:26 PM

Chinese and Mexican are nationalities. You are again rewriting my words and trying a safe exit.

And your idiotic statements say a lot about the state of your intellectual development. You should have used a Capote Anglais to protect you from this nasty Mal de Naples that's affecting your judgement.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 4:34 PM

I expect Jimmy to be "filer a l'anglaise" when he's in the Muni if he ever has the courage to do what I advised him to do.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 4:37 PM

So what you're saying is... it cuts both ways? Should I be terribly offended that you've insulted my nationality (one of the three, anyway) or shall I just let it slide as the ramblings of a no-doubt intoxicated pseudo-Frenchman.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 4:44 PM

And ... to set the record straight, I don't ride Muni, or any other form of public transit.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 4:48 PM

Please point to the place where I insulted any nationality. You're either delusional or trying all sorts of diversions. Someone calls you on it and you throw more weak diatribes and more diversions.

And Muni, well, picture me surprised.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 4:56 PM

Capote Anglais? Filer a l'anglaise?

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 5:05 PM

They're locutions, not insults. I never said "screw {place your country here}". Now that would be an insult.

I guess the brits are the last to still enjoy French bashing. The rest have climbed up a few notches up the civilization ladder.

I'm in London next week to meet a client, then a few friends in Oxford, some of he reasons of my stay in EU (I also studied in the Perfide Albion). I'll make sure to tell them there's a coward somewhere in SF insulting people he doesn't know simply based on nationality. We'll drink a pint to that idiot. Or three. Never forget Fachoda.

Posted by: lol at July 10, 2013 5:23 PM

Great. Have a pint at the Eagle and Child (aka "The Bird and Baby") one of my favorites. Hope that doesn't ruin it for you.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 10, 2013 5:26 PM

"I think the only thing I can say with total certainty...is that *nothing* has been proven by this discussion thread."

Oh trust me, you guys have certainly proven more than that, just nothing flattering to either of you. This argument was more inane and useless than one of the old Tipster/Fluj exchanges. In fact it even made me miss those old 'arguments'.

Posted by: Rillion at July 11, 2013 9:37 AM

Do we get a prize? How about a free espresso?

I make mine with nice Swiss coffee.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 11, 2013 9:47 AM

I made my coffee turkish after lunch today. Poor man's great coffee and a nice change over my usual espresso.

Posted by: lol at July 11, 2013 9:58 AM

btw, I went to the Champs Elysees Nespresso store yesterday. Oh my oh my. Next time I'll remember to rent a tuxedo.

Posted by: lol at July 11, 2013 10:00 AM

Why ever would someone of your remarkable erudition in matters of taste and style even set foot in such a place?

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 11, 2013 10:11 AM

I will walk into a Starbucks to purchase a NY Times ("no, just the paper please"). And I will walk into a Nespresso store to purchase a gift for a friend who suffered the unfortunate predicament of receiving a machine as a birthday present.

NOT looking forward to Costa's horrible mud next week.

Posted by: lol at July 11, 2013 10:18 AM

At least the Tipster/Fluj exchanges were about real estate.

Seriously, arguing over French vs. Italian coffee? You two make Niles and Frasier Crane look like a couple of longshoremen.

Posted by: Fishchum at July 11, 2013 10:18 AM

Well to be fair I think we've just segued off into Swiss vs. English coffee. Speaking of Frasier, do you remember that episode about Caviar? Man, that was funny.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 11, 2013 10:20 AM


No one is arguing between French and Italian coffee. we both agree Italian is superior to all. We just disagreed on... what did we disagree on by the way?

Oh yes, the british guy giving food advice.


Posted by: lol at July 11, 2013 10:35 AM

I seem to recall some disagreement regarding my disdain for the French and their (wholly unwarranted) superiority complex.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 11, 2013 10:50 AM

Italians make great coffee, great cars and many other great things. Brits have their share of great things, like great cars and vastly superior hooligan fights. The French have the greatest foods and wines, public services, power production and transport. All the rest of great things are probably American. Let's be honest, we just cannot compare.

Posted by: lol at July 11, 2013 11:06 AM

I think you forgot the Germans. When it comes to hooliganism and cars, they are pretty outstanding too. Just don't mention the war!

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 11, 2013 11:10 AM

"Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the
mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the
Swiss. Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the
lover's Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the Italians."

Posted by: Fishchum at July 11, 2013 11:13 AM

Don't forget rioting and burning cars. Its practically a national pastime in France.

Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at July 11, 2013 11:15 AM

^ only in the giant moat that surrounds Paris. We put some sharks in there just in case the Germans come back.

Posted by: lol at July 11, 2013 12:49 PM

This thread is so off topic it has travelled not only beyond our solar system but out beyond the known universe. I actually think this whole discussion says a LOT about San Francisco today. Horrible public transit, dirty streets, homeless, lack of housing, congestion, who cares for many as long as they spend their time instead on worrying about stopping Italian Coffee Stores.
There is something so precious, provincial and myopic about stopping Illy in a neighborhood with such below standard food and retail options. Maybe if they placed a silly parket in the rendering and had some bearded hipsters posing near the door it would help convince the know-it-alls to allow approval?

Posted by: Amazing at July 11, 2013 3:20 PM

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