August 11, 2009
Designer East Bay Apples To Apples For 737 Second Street #405
This property is now an apple…changed hands in just under a year. Original buyer paid $1.975M in Jul '08 [asking $2,200,000 at the time], sold it for $1.675M in Jun '09…
Call it a drop of 15.2% over the past year. But regardless, we still love the design.
First Published: August 11, 2009 10:30 AM
Comments from "Plugged In" Readers
You guys should feature more East Bay properties -- you can't be a little bit pregnant!
Well, the purchaser lost as much money as he/she saved off the original list, so he's even :) :)
[^^^ I'm practicing for a career in writing economic press releases]
Posted by: dub dub at August 11, 2009 10:40 AM
Yes, excellent design though has a fatal omission in amenities to retain value in today's market. If only this place included a pool of sharks with fricken laser beams attached to their heads then it would retain value. It's a simple request. C'mon already !
The market isn't tanking, it's just that people don't know how to sell a home like this for two million dollars. Add the tank and wealthy Belgian orphans will will bid the price up.
Posted by: The Milkshake of Despair at August 11, 2009 10:45 AM
Loved it then, love it now. Don't love Oakland.
Posted by: eddy at August 11, 2009 10:50 AM
Agree w/ eddy. Anybody care to guess what a place like this would go for if it had a 94107 zip code (South Beach)?
Posted by: Dakota at August 11, 2009 11:02 AM
Posted by: Paul Hwang at August 11, 2009 11:18 AM
One of the things that makes a place like this tough to value and sell: almost no comps.
It's at a whole different pricepoint; there are tons of 1 BR lofts in the Jack London Sq area, but very, very few bigger, "high end" lofts. The only other large lofts in Oakland/Berkeley/Emeryville are live/work spaces in much grittier neighborhoods than JLS.
We are about to rent the closest comp to this loft that I know of, largely for all the economic reasons frequently discussed here.
Posted by: avwh at August 11, 2009 12:22 PM
Eddy said Loved it then, love it now. Don't love Oakland.
Exactly. Sorry folks but this house is not in San Francisco, so I remain unimpressed.
Posted by: Topher at August 11, 2009 1:10 PM
"Exactly. Sorry folks but this house is not in San Francisco, so I remain unimpressed."
And South Beach is not SOHO. Get a grip...
Posted by: Willow at August 11, 2009 1:32 PM
Not surprised they lost money here. In addition to being really frickin' awesome, this Oakland shag pad has too few bathrooms. The LBI(TM) (Lazy Bathroom Indicator) would have correctly predicted a decline in prices here due to the lack of a bathroom or two.
Posted by: Jimmy (No Longer Bitter) at August 11, 2009 3:04 PM
Topher is correct. It's not San Francisco. Otherwise, Daly City would be priced the same as Crocker-Amazon.
Posted by: Mystery Realtor at August 11, 2009 4:44 PM
"Exactly. Sorry folks but this house is not in San Francisco, so I remain unimpressed."
"And South Beach is not SOHO. Get a grip..."
Well said Willow! What is it with people and SF? I was just in Chicago and found the city to be much more charming than the priciest parts of SF (for sure more charm than South Beach/SOMA / yuck)! I know, I know, the winters... whatever SF'ers continue on thinking you live in the best place on earth. It's just an illusion and for sure no comparison to SOHO.
Posted by: Oakland Chap at August 11, 2009 5:48 PM
I love the looks of this place. Although Jack London Square is still a tough sell. Lack of public transport, restaurants, interesting shops make it still a place that has potential but not there yet.
As an owner of a great home in the Oakland Hills, the sanctimonious on here kind of annoy me. Yes, Oakland is not SF. How many of you have actually come to see what is happening over here or would you rather just "pre-judge". Many SF chefs are moving here, neighborhoods are seeing exciting things. Don't believe everything you read. There are certainly issues on crime, but I rarely have to step around a homeless person or step over what the homeless may have left on the ground. So, be fair.
Hey, stop on by. I'm glad to grab a bottle of wine from my cellar and you can enjoy my four bridge view and look back on your Utopia, yearning to get back there. No flak jackets required.
BTW, I'd love to also see more East Bay properties on socketsite
Posted by: psusfca at August 11, 2009 6:44 PM
Very nice place.
Ditto to the requests for more East Bay properties on Socketsite.
I am a HUGE Oakland fan. I've lived all over the Bay Area and Oakland is definitely one of my favorite spots. And there's no doubt that 80% of Oakland is 100% better than SOMA.
Regarding Jack London Square - not my personal cup of tea. Not enough good shops and restaurants. But, I did read in Oakland magazine that they are currently building a Ferry Building-esque food hall slated to open in Jack London Square in April 2010. That should be interesting.
Posted by: lawgirl at August 11, 2009 9:11 PM
lawgirl- 80% of Oakland is 100% better than SOMA? What 30% of East Oakland are you including...
Posted by: auden at August 11, 2009 11:14 PM
ok, my math is off. It would be more like what 60% of East Oakland are you including, but you get my point... I know people have a lot of Oakland pride, and there are reasons to be proud of Oakland, but East Oakland isn't one of them.
Posted by: auden at August 11, 2009 11:18 PM
Also not a big fan of Jack London Square, but am surprised at the Oakland bashing as well. I actually think Oakland and Berkeley still have a lot of places that are responsible for what makes the Bay Area unique. My former business partner lives in a wonderful craftsman house in the Montclair district of Oakland , and he is a foodie who chose the East Bay for the restaurants and shops nearby.
(Chez Panisse, Oliveto, Rockride Market Hall, Acme Bread, the Cheese Board, the Original Peets, Cafe Fanny, Kermit Lynch wines, Cafe Rouge, Hapuku Fish, etc.)
I would also hope we could see an East Bay listing now and then since it presents a wonderful alternative value to many who seem to feel that the entire universe revolves around Noe Valley.
Posted by: Morgan at August 12, 2009 12:18 AM
"Oakland Chap" says I was just in Chicago and found the city to be much more charming than the priciest parts of SF
You realize this is August, right ? I wonder what you would say in January and February if you visit Chicago again ? Let me guess "OMG ! I now know what frozen nuts feel like."
White people LOVE San Francisco. That's for real my friend. not matter how much you trash it !
Posted by: Topher at August 12, 2009 6:12 AM
How does this place compare to the 30M+ of a shell of a 'penthouse' at the Ritz that I see so often on SS with those crazy monthly HOA dues? SF Real Estate is so overly favored to Oakland just as tourism and the crime reports. I believe that 80% of Oakland is of excellence and 20% is not... What impresses me about Oakland over SF is you know where the crime can be found and you just don't go there and sadly elect not to live there (East and parts of West Oakland). In SF you could go two blocks past Saks looking for more high-end shopping in the wrong direction and end up on Jones St (oh no SF'ers I said Jones St).... BTW, I had some guy at a party tell me that most of Jones St was not really in SF and Bernal Heights was in SSF - is this true? Or you happen to live off 2nd Street (aka South Beach) and decided to walk around South Park after dark... Better have a big mean dog with ya if you do. Better yet, don't allow your kids (or visiting niece or nephew) play there without doing a sweep for disposed needles in the brightness of day from the night before. We don't have this problem in the desired areas of Oakland. Reality hurts.
Posted by: Heyman at August 12, 2009 6:23 AM
I believe that 80% of Oakland is of excellence and 20% is not.
Really ? And what might you be smoking ?
The OAKLAND CRIME MAP tells the opposite story, i.e. almost all of Oakland (barring the "Oakland Hills" where rich white folks live) is riddle with Murders, Assaults and Robberies.
Posted by: Topher at August 12, 2009 6:52 AM
Most cities - SF definitely included - have crime...it's part of urban living. And the Oakland Hills are as much a part of Oakland as Pac Heights or Noe are part of SF. There's lots of sketchy areas in SF too, so being selective with your neighborhoods doesn't make for a fair comparison. I don't think anyone here is discounting the significant crime in parts of Oakland - this is a real problem. That said, a very large portion of the city does not suffer from these issues and depending on what you're looking for may be a nicer place to live than SF. For sure you get more space, but arguments can be made for the food and honestly the architecture. There are some awesome places in SF, but there's a lot of really awful architecture too - big stretches of boring, similar facades on treeless streets. Plus the weather sucks. As much as a comparison to Chicago makes SF weather seem nice, one summer in the East Bay makes SF weather look terrible. And spending a year in LA (which has it's own issues, though I do like LA) makes the weather in the whole Bay Area unattractive.
What's annoying and what invites so much argument is how self-impressed SF dwellers seem to be. SF is indeed a great city with much to offer - great restaurants and some amazing neighborhoods, but it's also very small, way overpriced and the weather sucks. It's far from perfect.
Posted by: pvc at August 12, 2009 8:15 AM
"Also not a big fan of Jack London Square."
Me neither Morgan. Last summer, my girlfriend at that time and I checked out some of the lofts and new building in and around Jack London Square. We live in SF, but were thinking of getting a place "on the side" to visit on weekends in summer to get sunshine and such.
The houses / lofts themselves were really nice. Lots of natural light and such. However, you get reminded every 10 or 15 minutes that you are close to the Railway Tracks. The train horns and track noise is unbearable, especially later at night when all else is quite.
Also in that neighborhood are a lot of not so clean (read "filthy") Chinese vegetable vendors who rent out the warehouses there for god know what. Those streets / blocks see a lot of activity (guys running across the street, carrying stinky boxes of fish etc) during the weekend. Not a pleasant experience IMO.
Maybe if the shooting subside and the tracks are relocated somewhere else, I would consider Jack London Square again for a summer pad... ;)
Posted by: Chad at August 12, 2009 8:33 AM
I am a huge fan of Oakland, and Berkeley and many of the other great places to live in the E. Bay, I also think the design is beautiful, HOWEVER I am perplexed by living basically IN the shipping yards with all the noise and pollution. I can't understand the attraction to that. Would you even use the roof deck over there? In many photos the real estate company seems to be highlighting this fact as if having your walls back right up against Matson cargo containers is a good thing. There are many many awesome neighborhoods in Oakland, this just isn't in one of them, and I can not see shelling out 2mil for that location. And yeah, I would feel EXACTLY the same if this were a SF ship yard we were discussing, because there is no assumed value in the "94107" zip code as someone else suggested.
Posted by: stylewylde at August 12, 2009 8:43 AM
Yeah, I forgot the shipping yards.
So between the gangbangers, railway tracks (and noise) and the shipping yards disturbance, I am very curious to know what is it that is drawing ppl to rave about the E.Bay, and especially OAKLAND ?!
Posted by: Chad at August 12, 2009 10:47 AM
"I am perplexed by living basically IN the shipping yards with all the noise and pollution."
I am interested in this comment as well. I would imagine when they are unloading the ships it would be 24 hours a day? The constant "beep beep" of equipment backing up and moving about could get quite annoying.
Posted by: anoncurious at August 12, 2009 11:16 AM
I saw this place online the last time it was for sale. It really is fabulous, probably the best loft in the East Bay. But I think it's fair to ask, what the heck are you looking at when you're sitting out on the roof deck?
Posted by: slobone at August 12, 2009 11:54 AM
I've biked through that area (with my family, I might add) a number of times on the Bay Trail, and it has always has seemed fairly quiet (admittedly, this is on a weekend). And to the person who pointed out the Oakland crime map -- did you notice that the (micro)neighborhood (I say that loosely, because you don't really have that many neighbors besides dockworkers) is one of the safer places in Oakland.
Posted by: EBGuy at August 12, 2009 11:57 AM
probably the best loft in the East Bay.
... that is quite a loft-y statement... but then again, it's yEast Bay, so maybe you are right ;)
Posted by: Chad at August 12, 2009 11:59 AM
On Jack London Square, it is definitely not an A grade Oakland neighborhood. More like B- with the potential of moving upwards. The biggest drawback is the location itself. It is sandwiched in between the Amtrak lines and the 880. Not great. It also lacks any significant retail (a problem for most of Oakland) and has fallen behind Uptown in terms of the bar/restaurant scene. From a public transit perspective the 12th St/Lake Merritt BART stations are walkable and there are lots of AC transit buses. It is also close to the water and as EBGuy notes, it is relatively safe.
Posted by: Willow at August 12, 2009 12:11 PM
I don't think Oakland allows anyone named Chad to live over here anyhow ;-). It is a name much better suited to the Marina.
Posted by: psusfca at August 12, 2009 12:19 PM
But I think it's fair to ask, what the heck are you looking at when you're sitting out on the roof deck?
Bay Bridge and filtered (depending on how they position the cranes) 'world class' City views from the hot tub. Tough crowd.
Posted by: EBGuy at August 12, 2009 12:24 PM
Posted by: Chad at August 12, 2009 12:38 PM
"White people LOVE San Francisco. That's for real my friend. not matter how much you trash it !"
“And what might you be smoking...almost all of Oakland (barring the "Oakland Hills" where rich white folks live) is riddle with Murders, Assaults and Robberies."
THE QUESTON IS, WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? LOOK AT THIS MAP OF SF (BUT HAVE PATIENCE CAUSE IT TAKES A WHILE FOR ALL THE CRIME TYPES TO APPEAR)
And if you did not know, you don’t have to be white and rich to live in the Hills of Oakland or the flatlands of Rockridge or Temescal. This is not SOMA or the Financial District where 1br 900 sq feet condos cost 800K…
Being that Oakland is 35% white, I think they love Oakland as well.
Posted by: Oakland Chap at August 12, 2009 1:36 PM
Chad says "So between the gangbangers, railway tracks"
What gangbangers? This is not LA! Boy... get a clue. LMF@O...
Posted by: Oakland Chap at August 12, 2009 1:50 PM
THE QUESTON IS, WHAT ARE YOU SMOKING? LOOK AT THIS MAP OF SF (BUT HAVE PATIENCE CAUSE IT TAKES A WHILE FOR ALL THE CRIME TYPES TO APPEAR)-
Whoa, ouch indeed. Is this for real?
Posted by: El-D at August 12, 2009 2:29 PM
Sorry. I'm from the midwest and Chicago was the nearest 'big city." I'd say 30% of chicago is an abandoned post-apocalypse war zone. Much of the far west side consists of dreary 50s suburbia with vast six lane boulevards lined with truck stops and aging strip centers.
don't get me worng, I love Chicago and there are wonderful aspects to the City. They are ahead of San Franc in some ways, including streetscaping in the core neighborhoods, parks, and overall architectural character. But 80% being better than SF? You have a corrupt mayor who is like a Willie Brown without style, and outside the metropolitan area is nothing but corn and soybeans. sorry, Door County does not equal Mendocino or Sonoma or Napa
Posted by: bk at August 12, 2009 3:34 PM
Since I'm moving to Jack London Sq in a month, I'll be able to comment on some of the more colorful assertions in this thread once I have real experience there.
We're coming from a 6000 sq ft Julia Morgan SFH in Piedmont, so a loft in Jack London Sq will be quite a change, but one we're excited about.
Posted by: avwh at August 12, 2009 4:22 PM
BK, please, there is no need to bash Chicago. Why it is constantly brought up is rather bizarre to say the least. For whatever reason, it seems to be a city that many San Franciscans like as well and look to for ideas. I think San Francisco should use Boston as a comparison instead, they are much more similar.
FYI, the Mendecino of Chicago is the Michigan Shores communities on the other side of the lake as well as places like Mackinac Island, not soybean fields.
Posted by: Not Again at August 12, 2009 4:50 PM
El-D - Yes! SF Crime is very, very awful. It is rarely discussed in detail in the media because I assume tourism ($'s) would be gone... When you watch the local news and pay close attention. You will find the top news story may be an East Oakland (or Richmond) street drug dealer shooting at one another. Towards the end of the news hour they’ll elect to quickly mention a murder or strong arm SF incident! Last week a tourist was robbed of his wallet by gun point in Union Square but that story came well after an armed robbery/non-injury incident in Hayward on Channel 7. I personally am more interested in a story of a tourist being accosted in my beloved City by the Bay. As a matter of fact I think all tourist should be aware of incidents such as this.
Posted by: Oakland Chap at August 12, 2009 5:40 PM
I am from SF. Been here all my 41 years and still reside here in a very decent district. Crime has always been a problem and I agree not discussed as the out-lying cities such as Oakland and beyond. SF is a major metro city and crime is here as in ALL metro cities in the Nation. People I know who move here after college or chasing a job later in life dont fully understand the crime stats of SF. They are blinded by the beauty of the City. If you want low crime in this area look, Piedmont, Atherton, or Los Gatos.
Posted by: D Wilson at August 12, 2009 6:17 PM
@EBguy that was sort of a rhetorical question. Let's just say that roof doesn't suggest "Calgon take me away" to me...
Posted by: slobone at August 12, 2009 8:37 PM
Chad, no hate meant. Was meant as a joke, but I think the creime spotters map put up by Oakland Chap says it all. Topher seems to be lacking in a response. there is crime everywhere. Oakland has more serious crime, no doubt. Come visit Oakland, you might love it. There are lots of fellow white boys over here. Including me
Posted by: psusfca at August 12, 2009 9:49 PM
I still want to know what people make of the difference between those crime maps. Seriously, Oakland is only half the population of SF, but some of those stats are glaringly different. Just look at "simple assault": 589 in SF vs. 69 in Oakland as of the past week? Burglary: 145 vs. 45? Some other stats make more sense (aggravated assault, 37 in SF vs. 18 in Oakland), but still...
Posted by: El-D at August 12, 2009 11:27 PM
Ok, I re-read this... Chad, says -
"We live in SF, but were thinking of getting a place "on the side" to visit on weekends in summer to get sunshine and such." & "Also in that neighborhood are a lot of not so clean (read "filthy") Chinese vegetable vendors who rent out the warehouses there for god know what.
Chad also says, “So between the gangbangers, railway tracks (and noise) and the shipping yards disturbance, I am very curious to know what is it that is drawing ppl to rave about the E.Bay, and especially OAKLAND ?!
Chad, when people want to get a place outside the City of SF they don't look to JLS or Oakland. Generally it's Tahoe or other Northern Lake destinations or possibly Walnut Creek where you really get tons of sun. Or if you really have it, Piedmont. The weather between JLS and most of SF is not that different I hope you know? There is maybe an 10 mile separation at the very most. I think that would be the most ragged buy ever! Imagine, "We live in San Francisco, and also have a loft in JLS where we escape the City for the sun of Oakland on the weekends after a hard work week in SF." It DOES NOT EVEN SOUND RIGHT!
--- This guy Chad is the typical basher/hater/ (+ under-cover racist who thinks he is not a racist) of Oakland that you here so often of that have no clue as to what Oakland is really about... I think what people like Chad need to do is believe that East and West Oakland as not being a part of Oakland just as they (SF’ers) do with the Tenderloin, most areas of SOMA and South Beach, Dog Patch, Bernal Heights, and most of the Mission district. The crime maps that have been posted say’s it all. You all living in SF who do not believe the reports should write the local media and ask why true crime reporting stats and news occurrences are never reported of your beloved City. They are doing you a true dis-favor by not bringing to your attention what really takes place over there. We in Oakland know where I crime hot spots are and I will state again, choose not to take part. Just as you do not visit the sections/SF districts above. Come over and take a look for yourself that Oakland is a very beautiful place with tons of lovely and warm people that far out-number the criminal minds that saturate a few areas of Oakland.
Finally, where is Topher? He has not posted a rebuttal of the facts of crime in SF? Topher was very quick to post a crime map of Oakland.
Posted by: Oakland Chap at August 13, 2009 5:29 AM
"The OAKLAND CRIME MAP tells the opposite story, i.e. almost all of Oakland (barring the "Oakland Hills" where rich white folks live) is riddle with Murders, Assaults and Robberies."
Not true - the Jack London Sq/produce market area has no violent stuff (murder, assault, robbery) for the first few time periods I tried from your crime map.
I think the area may be isolated enough on the other side of 880 that the hard-core criminals don't ply their trade near the waterfront (maybe it's too small or better policed, or too limited in getaway lanes, so they stay away).
Posted by: avwh at August 13, 2009 4:53 PM
There have been 29 homicides in San Francisco this year so far and 64 in Oakland, even though Oakland has about half the population of San Francisco. So the overall murder rate is about 4 times that of The City. Online maps of dubious reliability that claim a 10X assault rate for San Francisco should not be taken seriously.
There are rough neighborhoods in both cities though, no doubt, just like in every large city in America.
Oakland has some great food, great weather and great people. East Bay definitely has a better music scene than San Francisco and is even starting to rival The City in visual arts. It is probably my second favorite city in America, after San Francisco. But it will always feel a little overshadowed by its larger, prettier, wealthier and better educated sister.
Posted by: NoeValleyJim at August 13, 2009 10:09 PM
Oakland is your second favorite city in America after San Francisco NVJ? You need to travel more my friend.
I love the East Bay, prefer Rockridge and Montclair to Noe Valley myself, but as a ranking of cities, I still have to take my hat off to New York, Chicago and Boston which I think really do have a bit more to offer than Oakland.
Posted by: anonconfused at August 14, 2009 9:53 AM
The 64 tally includes officers killed by that idiot Lovelle Mixon from East Oakland taking us to 60. 59 after Oscar Grant, and 4 other officer killing of "civilians" taking the count to 55. NO doubt Oakland has its problems but for someone not familiar with the crime stats here to state 'ALL OF OAKLAND' has a major crime problem is a joke. The homicides in Oakland are very much concentrated in areas that are well known for regular high crime incidents. These areas are small pockets of the city. Rarely do we find a homicide of an innocent victim. The same individuals on SS who comment negatively on photos tours of homes without ever actually visiting the home in person are the bandits that comment on crime in Oakland without any educated validation. SF has a ton of crime related problems. The silence from the ever vocal to the reports provided earlier state that everyone living in SF wants to hide by a curtain when thinking of crime related to their beloved City.
Posted by: Oakland Chap at August 14, 2009 10:41 AM