A reader wonders about a One Rincon Hill rumor: “From what i heard they are not letting anyone up to go through the walk through unless you are on title.”
Another responds: “You can not bring anyone that is not on title. I just went through my walkthrough last Friday and my agent was denied access.”
And we’re awaiting an official confirmation (and reasoning behind the approach if so).
UPDATE: While we’re still waiting for an official answer, another reader strongly suggests that this is one big misunderstanding: “The walk-throughs that this person is referring to are the pre-walk through walk through (i.e. not the official walk-throughs with the inspection company).”
UPDATE: Or not: “i don’t know what a pre-walk through walk-through is, but they call it the pre-closing walk through and the steps after a pre-closing walk through as listed in my closing check list is closing and key turn over. it does not mention of an official walkthrough after that.”
UPDATE (2/6): And we have the official word: “Agents are allowed as the buyers representative. Only parties named on the contract are allowed. This is an aesthetic and informative mechanical orientation of the unit. It takes approximately two hours to go over the finishes and operation of all the systems in the unit.”
One Rincon Hill: Closings, Walkthroughs, And (Almost) Anything Else [SocketSite]

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Comments from “Plugged-In” Readers

  1. Posted by ex SF-er

    you’ve gotta be kidding me.
    I’d want my agent as well as a home inspector to do the walkthrough with me.
    I hope this is a groundless rumor.

  2. Posted by Sleepiguy

    Another blog has some interior images of 1RH…
    http://liveinsf.com/2008/01/23/inside-one-rincon-hill/

  3. Posted by viewlover

    If this rumor happens to be true, I would not be surprised. After all, these are the same people that called floor 8 the ground floor. [Removed by Editor]

  4. Posted by anon

    Another blog has some interior images of 1RH…
    Jeez! Is this what everyone is raving about? Looks pretty generic to me. Guess all the poor design decisions weren’t limited to the exterior ;)

  5. Posted by Trip

    Stand your ground and bring in whomever you want — you have too much at stake. Tell them you’ll leave and reschedule for a time when you can bring up everyone you want and need to. You have the right to inspect before you close, and there is no way they can enforce this “policy” (unless there is something clear in the written agreement saying they can do this). I’d love to hear the ORH rationale — there is none, other than “we want to increase the chances of you missing problems.”

  6. Posted by anon sf

    I wouldn’t expect less from these guys. They obviously don’t want people taking a close look at what they are buying. Something’s not right and I wouldn’t be surprise if they’re trying to hide something or not want the buyers to see what a cheap building it is.
    If I were a buyer I would demand my own professional inspection no exceptions.
    I always felt the Rincon sales office and developer are a bunch of clowns that can’t be trusted.

  7. Posted by jdk

    more pics from that same site here:
    http://liveinsf.com/2008/01/29/inside-one-rincon-hill-2/

  8. Posted by baywind

    The interior fixtures will only look generic so long as a complete professional remodel is in the works.. which I think maybe the developers assumed would happen anyway and didn’t put too much effort into theM?

  9. Posted by jk

    Hey, you get what you are paying for. Remember how the bandwagon was cheering the pricepoint of $1000 psf??
    My take is the developer is scared at the fallout rate and don’t want people selling their deposites. Take a look at craigslist, there’s tons of One Rincon listings. The developer rather the people to lose the deposit and let their salesteam resell them and hopefully recreate the demand again.
    Its not an ideal time to be an One Rincon owner now.

  10. Posted by rpa7795

    this is true – they will only let people up who are on title! in other words, no agents, family members, inspectors, dogs, cats, children, etc.

  11. Posted by snark

    Very uninspiring interiors and boxy spaces. I guess the developers figure everyone will spend another 200K to fix up their little bay-view cubicle.

  12. Posted by anonarch

    Are you all saying that if a buyer wants to bring his designer or architect to see the unit, he/she cannot?! I have never heard of anything like this. As an architect I have been brought in to inspect numerous spaces during walkthroughs with clients in buildings that were still not complete. In fact I have been given free access to sites without the client being present while they are still under construction. (This is very standard in office towers) This “rule” is the strangest thing I have ever heard of and I don’t think it is legal.

  13. Posted by anon

    I think that is crazy and presents an unfair advantage to the developer as most people will miss a lot of things that a trained eye would see.

  14. Posted by S&S

    For those who are in contract with 1RH and are looking for a “get out of jail free” card … this is it. So consider this a blessing in disguise and walk — no, run, run far and run fast away from this place.

  15. Posted by anonbuyerturnedrenter

    Wow, those interiors are hideous! I would definitely run from this development, not worth the >$1000/sq. ft., esp. in this market. I never liked this development, though. Too close to the bay bridge.

  16. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    Guys (and by guys I am referring to the crew at SocketSite), you do realize that by posting this topic and soliciting comments, you are essentially doing the equivalent of throwing bloody chum into heavily shark infested waters just so you can see what happens. There was no value to be derived from posting a ridiculous and untrue comment by reader and then saying, “Hey guys, what do you think?” The walk-throughs that this person is referring to are the pre-walk through walk through (i.e. not the official walk-throughs with the inspection company).
    Most of these comments aren’t even worth responding to because they’re so off base. (A) It’s clear that none of the above posters have any connection to the project because, based on their statements, they don’t have a clue what they are talking about and (B)neither of the two units photographed were upgraded and I personally though the basic finishes offered at ORH were trash. If you didn’t purchase either of the two the $35K upgrade packages, you clearly weren’t buying the unit to live in it, so you didn’t care.
    [Editor's Note: We're honestly not trying to stir the pot but rather set the record straight. And after talking with a number of agents that seem to be operating under the same "no agents" understanding (or misunderstanding), we deemed the topic worthy of a post and discussion.]

  17. Posted by [movingback]

    Hallelujah, RinconHill_Res! Many times, SocketSite reads like the National Enquirer of online real estate blogs. I’m just saying ….

  18. Posted by f

    i don’t know what a pre-walk through walk-through is, but they call it the pre-closing walk through and the steps after a pre-closing walk through as listed in my closing check list is closing and key turn over. it does not mention of an official walkthrough after that.
    the walk through i did was with Professional Home Warranty Service and he mentioned that if I did not bring it up during the walk through, then that’s it. So it sounds pretty official to me.
    just because someone did not spend another 35k on upgrades, does not mean that they have to give up their expectations. and trust me, my expectations were low to begin with.

  19. Posted by f

    pictures that i took during the pre-closing walkthrough. i did not take a picture of everything I found but here are a few …
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/flankan/sets/72157603852807542/
    i bought a condo in santa clara for 400k two years ago to rent out, i thought the construction on that unit was bad, until i saw my unit at one rincon hill which i plan to live in myself. oh well, i was hoping i wouldn’t need to do any fix-up, but i guess i was wrong.

  20. Posted by ex SF-er

    Oh my goodness.
    Thanks for the update f.
    I have 2 sets of very good friends (including my best friend) moving in there soon (higher levels though, so not moving in quite yet.)
    Even the models had a lot of defects (I brought up how the handle of the kitchen cabinet by the fride gouges into the wood due to bad placement/spacing). Once seeing the model, I knew that there would be a fair amount of cleanup work to do… but that’s not uncommon in new construction, hence the need for a walkthrough! c’est la vie. but to not allow agents/home inspectors is rediculous… if note illegal, unethical.
    I’ll call my friends tonight to make sure they demand an inspector go through with them. They are first time homebuyers, and would NEVER see any of the things you saw. (they will just walk in and see the view and ooh and ahh and then sign the papers and leave)
    I’ve helped them through this to the best of my ability, and I have to say I feel that it’s been a disaster from start to finish. ORH does a great job at the “fun stuff”-having parties and promoting ORH… but I dislike their procedures wiht the IMPORTANT things like the contract procedure, and also what they told my friends and now this.
    also: FWIW the link above to liveinsf has some pics of a unit with cherry floors which is an upgrade from the standard bamboo.
    that said, I’ve been in the models, and they look much better than the pics do… not sure if the model will be more representative, or if the pics will be…
    it’s also hard to assess emptly/raw space. interior design can do a lot for a space.

  21. Posted by anonarch

    I think I would be very concerned if I were a 1RH buyer. The firm I am with has recently completed two interior projects in new towers in Chicago and I was able to access the units at various times during the construction process. I did not have the owner with me, but did bring the electrical contractor, plumber, and media consultant. One tower was 340onthePark, the other was 900 north Michigan. Now both of these condos were purchased for more than 2 million, but when our firm bought a unit at the Helmut Jahn designed 600 North Fairbanks building for us to stay in when we are working back there, we have been allowed numerous inspections and visits with various inspectors and contractors without any problems. Of course, this is back in Chicago where developers are in fierce competition to provide customer service in upper end projects, and where buyers expect more for their money than what we get here in San Francisco.

  22. Posted by anon

    Any intelligent buyer can do a walkthrough by themself. I’ve bought two units without having anyone along other than my wife. Just bring a checklist and take your time. No big deal!

  23. Posted by ex SF-er

    anon:
    of course it’s a big deal. People are paying $750k-Millions for this place.
    they should be able to take whomever they choose to the pre-closing walkthrough.
    if they miss something, they may have no recourse to address it later. that’s the whole POINT of teh walkthrough. And as I already said, my friend is a first time homebuyer, so by definition he is NOT an intelligent buyer, he is an ignorant buyer. (not stupid, ignorant)
    I can’t believe you would blithely do a walkthrough on a multimillion dollar condo without a professional that represents YOU.

  24. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    The bottom line is that you should absolutely demand to be able to take with you anyone, and I mean anyone, that you want to take with you to inspect given the level of your investment. Remember, you are in a power position on this issue. Just remind the developer’s reps what the market currently looks like and that you will walk away if your demands are not meant. Trust me, they will blink. Without going into any detail, I’ve already done that on two separate occasions regarding other issues. And I AM a first time home buyer. You just have to know how to be assertive.
    I think what anon @ 8:07 meant is that it should not be a big deal to get exactly what you want, that is, the ability to take whomever you want to take with you to inspect your unit.

  25. Posted by anonSF

    This is pretty tacky on ORH’s part. Not sure what they are trying to do, but it raises a number of issues in my mind and if I were a buyer there I’d be pretty angry. Seems like a bad way to start off the whole process.

  26. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    Everyone on this topic is being so naive.
    This is the real estate development business guys, this is what real estate developers and home builders do generally, with some exceptions I know. It’s very rare that a home, any home, is built 100% perfect on the first try. That’s not what these guys strive for.
    So the real question is, are you going to be a lion or a lamb? If you’re a lion, you’ll get what you want and you’ll get it done to your satisfaction. If you’re a lamb…..you’ll get, well, slaughtered.
    Everyone really needs to quit the, “poor me” bit and accept some personal responsibility. Take matters into your own hands and you should be satisfied with the results.

  27. Posted by brian

    I love how RinconHill_Res started by taking the stance of “this is baseless, you guys obviously don’t know what you’re talking about”…then when it was corroborated by other buyers, now he’s changed to “duh, this is standard stuff, don’t be a lamb be a lion”.
    RH_Res, if you’re happy with your place, great. More power to you. But your arguments here are contradictory and just plain wrong.

  28. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    I never said it was baseless, I still think that statement is dead wrong. My point was bigger than just this one isolated false assertion. My point was, no matter what the issue, there’s always going to be someone that is crying foul and acting like a victim, even those that have nothing to do with this project, which makes it all the more funny.
    There’s absolutely no contradiction between my assertion that the above statement regarding walk-throughs is wrong and my assertion that people need to quit playing the victim.
    So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

  29. Posted by ex SF-er

    Uh… RinconHillres, you’re not making sense anymore.
    first you say:
    “There was no value to be derived from posting a ridiculous and untrue comment by reader”
    and
    “Most of these comments aren’t even worth responding to because they’re so off base”
    then you say:
    “I never said it was baseless”
    hmm…..
    f’s post seems pretty clear that it was the pre-closing walkthrough. It doesn’t sound anything like a pre-pre closing walkthrough walkthrough or whatever.
    s/he also has PICTURES from inside the building posted. how did they get those if they weren’t there?
    face it, you are in error.
    whether or not people play the victim is a completely different issue.

  30. Posted by missionbayres

    Wow, OneRincon is really turning into one big mess!
    Why can’t they just do things in a professional, standard, and ethical manner like most developments in the city? They sure are great in throwing glitzy parties and *talking up* the building like it’s the greatest architectural achievement in the world. But after they reel in those poor buyers and make them sign the contracts, then they treat them like sh*t.
    If I were a buyer I would be genuinely concern about the quality of the construction and materials used. Something just smells fishy about this whole thing.
    In fact, I wouldn’t be surprise to see lawsuits start popping up within 12 months of closing…

  31. Posted by anonSF

    So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.
    Wow, smeone’s getting defensive here ;)
    Yes, people need to take some responsibility and be an adult. The reality, however, is that most buyers are really not going to have that much leverage with the developer (who has a legal team and millions at stake). The fact that they are trying to limit the number of people who can participate in the walkthough makes me think that they are trying to pull a fast one. If it walks like a duck…
    And I categorically reject the idea that you should have to “fight” for your rights when you are buying a condo worth close to (or over) a million dollars. It seems reasonable to me to expect some basic level of professionalism and service at that price point.
    Compare this to the Infinity, where in the last few months owners have received opera tickets, Christmas gift packages, and the Boulevard cookbook and a $150 gift card for the restaurant. Yes, small things, but it makes you fell welcomed and appreciated. ORH’s tactics would make me feel like a chump. Not a nice welcome mat they’re putting out.

  32. Posted by ARM

    ANONSF AND MISSIONBAYRES. Time and again you have revealed yourself as infinity associated, whether it be vs. One Rincon or The Palms or whereever. Your posts are hollow plants and ruin the site for everyone. Plus, it simply looks petty and desperate. It’s sad that some folks build on your cr*p

  33. Posted by f

    i just want to clarify one thing, i am not playing a victim here. i’ve pretty much accepted the fact that i am not happy about the quality of work they did on the unit, but at the same time, i don’t expect them to do much since the more attempts they make to fix something, the more chances of them messing it up. this is typical of new developments and i am not a first time home buyer, so i’ve learned to accept this. the major stuff they MUST fix, but the little stuff, i just have to accept that there is never going to be perfect in this world.

  34. Posted by anonSF

    Yes, I bought at the Infinity but I’m not officially associated with them. Yes, I have an opinion about ORH. Not sure what difference that makes.
    And BTW, I don’t think it’s just Infinity buyers or “bitter renters” who dislike aspects of ORH. Compare recent Infinity posts with ORH posts. The latter always provokes more heated discussion, that’s just facts.

  35. Posted by smarty

    “even those that have nothing to do with this project, which makes it all the more funny.”
    RinconHillRes, you’re the type of person that thought anyone not living in Rwanda had no business getting involved in the Rwandan Genocide, aren’t you?

  36. Posted by missionbayres

    ARM, you could very well be an associated of OneRincon desparately trying to gain back what little dignity and respect you have left.
    Last time I checked, this is still just a blog and we are just our exercising our right to free speech so everyone reading this should take it with a grain of salt.
    Having said that, Socketsite seems have have a topic worthy of discussion since OneRincon seems like the only development in the city that doesn’t allow a buyer’s agent access to the property along with the buyer. Agents have the experience and insight to help with the walkthroughs, especially first time buyers. They know what questions to ask and what things to point out during the walkthroughs.
    Bottom line – agents and are paid to represent the buyer. If an agent can’t even view the property, how can they effectively represent the buyer??
    Now am I an associate of Infinity? NO. Do I know buyers of Infinity? YES. Do I know the sales staff of Infinity and OneRincon? YES. Am I bullish on Infinity and bearish on OneRincon? YES and YES.

  37. Posted by ex SF-er

    ARM:
    attack the argument, not the people.
    do you not think it is odd that a builder would RESTRICT a buyer from bringing his/her professionals from the pre-closing walkthrough?
    Despite what the ORH supporters say, I have not heard of this ever before.
    If there are others, please post evidence.
    I’m glad that Socketsite brought up this topic, because it is yet one more hurdle that I’m going to help my friends deal with.
    Due to this post, I will make sure that my friends have their own building inspector with them. That or no close. without this post, they would have been lambs to a slaughterhouse.
    I have no idea why it matters, butI have no affiliation with Infinity, nor do I know anybody moving in there at this point. (I had one friend who backed out).
    I have no particular positive/negative feelings for the ORH building that would make me hope that it succeeds/fails. I think it shines in some areas (views) and really lacks in others (style, location, sales management team)

  38. Posted by John

    OK, this is strange. I don’t see the point (of 1RH, or all the complaints on the other side either).
    All new constructions have developer warranty, don’t they? Once you get your key, get whoever you want to inspect it if you think you need it. If there is anything broken, call the developer and make them fix it.
    What’s the big deal?
    So, I don’t understand why they want to restrict the access, because if there are problems, the buyers will find it and they will need to fix it.
    And I don’t understand the outcry. Buyers aren’t screwed no matter what.

  39. Posted by Satchel

    “What’s the big deal?”
    Just a hunch, but in Miami now, purchasers are using any defect or discrepancy between offering circular and unit (say, square footage off by 20 square feet, or a window is 6″ smaller than represented) as a basis for litigation. All to back out of the contract, and recover the “nonrefundable” deposit (much larger in Miami than in SF I think). Obviously, things in SF are nowhere near as bad as in Miami – yet (ok, just kidding – they’ll never get as bad here), but perhaps developers are beginning to adopt “protective” methods as a standard way of doing business going forward in this environment? (which is going to get MUCH worse for developers everywhere in the US, now that credit is being squeezed mercilessly)

  40. Posted by anonconfused

    If OneRincon has nothing to hide, why be so restrictive to who buyers can bring when viewing their future unit? It should NOT be up to the buyer to beg and argue to force the developer to allow the buyer to bring an agent or professional with them to view what they are about to purchase for around 1 million dollars. Would you buy a car without taking it for a test drive first? Have you not brought along a friend or significant other when making a car or home purchase? I would be more than a little worried if this is the way the One Rincon team is going to treat buyers. Not only would I allow them to bring others when viewing their unit, but you would think OneRincon would have a bottle of champagne and thank you card waiting for them inside!

  41. Posted by ex SF-er

    IMO it’s obvious why ORH is doing this.
    at the end of the walkthrough you usually sign a paper saying something akin to “the condo is in good condition”
    at that time, if there are issues, you also write that on the form.
    the condo developer is responsible for cleaning up all the loose ends before closing.
    If you sign “all is ok” and then later on there’s a problem, the condo developer can say “no, that’s not from our construction, that happened AFTER closing so it’s not our responsibility”.
    the goal is to get all the loose ends tied up BEFORE closing.
    let me tell you, getting a developer to come and fix issues AFTER closing is a PITA, warranty or not. what is their incentive? they already have your money.
    and what homeowner wants to buy a house, and then miss work all the time waiting for plumbers and electricians and other tradespeople to come and fix the problem?
    Get the stuff fixed ASAP before they have your money.

  42. Posted by anon sf

    Honestly, I’m starting to feel sorry for OneRincon buyers if they are really being treated this poorly. Not letting agents or inspectors/friends into their unit? That can’t be legal. Any agents like to chime in? Paul Hwang, you represented half dozen buyers. Where’s your 2 cents?
    I would like to know if any buyers adamantly demanded that their agent and/or inspector be allowed into their unit during the walkthru.
    Curious if anyone got the sales staff to bend at all?
    Infinity allows both family, friends and agents to accompany walkthroughs. Wonder what is One Rincon’s justification?

  43. Posted by f

    well, i don’t need anyone to feel sorry for me now. yes, my agent can not be there for my walk through but at the same time, i didn’t really need him to be there. the rep from Professional Home Warranty Service was great and was able to answer any questions that i have and am very organized noting all my concerns. the walkthrough, i felt, was thorough and informative. again, i have nothing against one rincon or rincon sales team or rincon association on site, they have been nothing but helpful. the only thing i was a little disappointed about was at the fact that the minor details that are important to a percentage of us was sloppy. but that’s more towards the developers which one rincon is helping with getting resolved. Professional Home Warranty Service is on site everyday to help address these issues. this is true with every development, this is my third and the process is the same.
    at the end, once those minor details are worked out, i am left with a condo with a beautiful view, even on a low floor and i am happy about that.
    i don’t know what is up with the whole infinity vs rincon that’s been on every one of these blogs. originally, i just want to shared my experience of the walkthrough …
    http://www.socketsite.com/archives/2008/01/one_rincon_hill_closings_walkthroughs_and_almost_anythi.html
    and all of a sudden turned into… this.
    i have to say, it’s like watching children in day care screaming at each other.

  44. Posted by John

    “let me tell you, getting a developer to come and fix issues AFTER closing is a PITA, warranty or not. what is their incentive? they already have your money. ”
    What Satchel said made sense. However, my experience says it is quite easy to get the developer to fix whatever construction problems within the warranty period, which is usually one year.
    The stuff (plumbing, electrical, gas) behind the walls may not show any problems at the walk-through anyway, and if they breaks down during the warranty period, the developer has to fix it.
    What you said only make sense on those exterior stuff – doors, paint, cabinets etc. Seriously, you don’t need an inspector to see if something’s wrong with those.
    What Satchel said made sense though. It seems that they were afraid of buyers using this as an oppotunity to get out of the contract.

  45. Posted by anon

    There are some new photos of units for rent on Craigslist. They are night and day compared to the ones linked to on this blog.
    You can’t judge an entire unit by some crappy, fuzzy, crooked pictures taken on a dark day that focus only on the defects.

  46. Posted by anoncomplainer

    Good luck trying to rent the unit when the building will not allow you to take the perspective renter to see the unit since only person named on the title is “allowed” to visit their “whisper quiet” unit for a short period.

  47. Posted by anon

    “Good luck trying to rent the unit when the building will not allow you to take the perspective renter to see the unit since only person named on the title is “allowed” to visit their “whisper quiet” unit for a short period.”
    It’s only for the walk-through. I doubt the seller of any property whether it be new construction or old would allow the purchaser to take prospective renters through the property before they have closed.

  48. Posted by Sleepiguy

    The craigslist images look identical to the liveinsf pictures…
    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/564453892.html
    http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/apa/564449498.html

  49. Posted by tom

    $3,800 for a one bedroom 800sqf?!? That is amazing. I’ll be curious to see if anyone pays these types of rents at One Rincon.

  50. Posted by SocketSite

    It’s parties named on the contract (not only title) that are being allowed to participate in pre-closing walkthroughs at One Rincon Hill.
    The official word:

    Agents are allowed as the buyers representative. Only parties named on the contract are allowed. This is an aesthetic and informative mechanical orientation of the unit. It takes approximately two hours to go over the finishes and operation of all the systems in the unit.

    No word on what happens if a buyer was unrepresented at contract signing (or how much resistance one will face if they insist on bringing their own inspector as well).
    The general gist (our words, not theirs): they know you’re excited to show off your purchase, but leave the extended family and friends at home (until you have the keys).

  51. Posted by enonymous

    Why can’t buyers bring a friend, or a more experienced set of eyes? This makes no sense, unless they have something to hide…

  52. Posted by The Milkshake of Despair

    I agree with enonymous. Why is there a problem with a buyer bringing anyone that they want to inspect their property ? I can’t see any legitimate reason for 1RH to limit the walkthrough party.
    Like others I can only speculate that 1RH wants to handicap buyers abilities to complete a thorough inspection. Having an agent may help though there is a built-in conflict of interest. If the agent notices a deal breaker, it is their own deal that gets broken.

  53. Posted by Paul Hwang

    Walked through unit 1204 with a client today: Suprisingly good views. A little noisy. Common Areas are nice. I took tons of pics. email if you want to see.

  54. Posted by FrustratedBuyer

    I am currently in the pre-closing walk through process at ORH, and have the following comments.
    The developer simply does not inspect the units before they are released and scheduled for closing. We identified numerous serious defects ranging from inadequate installation of floor coverings to missing cabinetry and window coverings. It is all correctible, but it is wrong to ask the buyer to sign off on a punch list when the unit is in such bad shape, including construction dirt and debris in every room.
    The developer claims that only persons on title are allowed to see the defective unit and participate in the creation of the punch list. We refused to accept this groundless dictate, and had some professional help with us. The earlier commentators are correct — the only purpose for the rule is for the developer to gain an advantage. Just say NO!
    The person who took us on the walk through was an officious young man who argued with us when we pointed out defects. He uses a steady stream of inconsequential lectures to distract you from carefully inspecting the unit. He also tries to talk you out of problems and tells you he doesn’t know who might be authorized to fix the problem. In the end, we simply ignored him, carefully examined the unit and would not sign the punch list until everything we pointed out was included.
    The developer would be well advised to defer the lectures (i.e., don’t put metal in the microwave and don’t block the cold air return) to the post-closing orientation. You don’t want to be distracted by this nonsense. You want someone to help you find construction defects (there were many) and not try to hide them from you.
    We have refused to close escrow until all the construction defects have been corrected. The developer has no choice but to comply.
    The finishes are not high end, but that is what they showed in the show room and we can’t complain about the deal we made. Our biggest mistake was ordering a few upgrades. The developer does not deal well with the upgrades. We would have been better off buying all the standard issue items and doing the upgrades ourself after the closing.
    On the bright side, the view is fantastic and the unit is doubtless worth more than what we are paying. Once you recognize that the developer’s quality control is second rate and the communication skills of the warranty company are nonexistent, you simply have to insist that all defects be corrected before close of escrow. You will find the sales office to be cooperative. They want to close as much as you do. Be prepared for significant delays. Don’t order the moving van until you are satisfied, and don’t plan to take a vacation immediately after the scheduled closing. It may be several weeks and several return visits for futher inspection before the unit is ready for you to instruct the title company to release the purchase money.

  55. Posted by anon

    Having been through closings in new buildings in NY, SF, and Vancouver, almost ALL developers will try to tell you “that’s just the way it is.” You are right, hold your ground.

  56. Posted by The Milkshake of Despair

    “The person who took us on the walk through was an officious young man who argued with us when we pointed out defects. He uses a steady stream of inconsequential lectures to distract you from carefully inspecting the unit.”
    The same thing happened to me on the first property I closed. The owner followed the inspector and myself around with nonstop babbling about all manner of subjects not pertaining to the condition of the property (he managed to establish that the inspector’s kids when to the same school as his kids !)
    Its pretty annoying to engage someone in a serious business deal only to have them try their best to trip you up. Good for you to rise above this nonsense.
    How to stop it ? Maybe the world needs a clownalert.com website to track the antics of slimy businesspeople. Thinking of buying from someone, look them up on clownalert.com and see whether someone else has complained.

  57. Posted by anon

    “We have refused to close escrow until all the construction defects have been corrected. The developer has no choice but to comply.”
    HAHA! I almost spit out my beverage. No choice. HA!
    The developer can easily say that your demands are beyond that of a reasonable buyer and refuse to sell the unit to you, and if you don’t like it you can take the matter to court. It wouldn’t be the first time this has happened. A brand new nice unit would be cake to sell to someone else who is less picky.
    Bottom line, fix the big and medium items, but the developer isn’t going to recraft an entire unit to your specs.

  58. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    “The developer can easily say that your demands are beyond that of a reasonable buyer and refuse to sell the unit to you, and if you don’t like it you can take the matter to court. It wouldn’t be the first time this has happened. A brand new nice unit would be cake to sell to someone else who is less picky.
    Bottom line, fix the big and medium items, but the developer isn’t going to recraft an entire unit to your specs.”
    In normal times, you would be absolutely correct.
    These are not normal times…far from it, so unless you’re talking about the penthouse unit or some specialty unit that some shiek would stop in pay cash for as a 50th home, I don’t agree. Not right now.
    I’ve already extracted plenty from them contravention of the developer’s so called “rules or policies” about this or that.
    Hold your ground, absolutely.

  59. Posted by anony

    I DID spit out my beverage at – “the unit is doubtless worth more than what we are paying” sentence! And what realtor told you that? From every price I’ve seen in any of these new buildings, I’d guess the unit is far from worth what you paid. The current market is only a fraction of why I know that is true. But seriously, the saddest part of reading that comment is that I had just finished reading 7 paragraphs describing the awful job ORH did constructing the place and the non-existent customer service through this final phase. Yet, you still believe that it is worth “more”? ORH is really lucky to have such a great pool of suckers in SF.

  60. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    “But seriously, the saddest part of reading that comment is that I had just finished reading 7 paragraphs describing the awful job ORH did constructing the place and the non-existent customer service through this final phase.”
    Actually, it probably is worth more to a subsequent purchaser because he or she won’t have to go throw the new construction process that this initial purchaser went through. He or she will simply purchase the condo and move in to a settled building. That’s definitely worth something. And that’s why new construction is always a little bit less expensive that secondary market sales. That’s just common sense.

  61. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    One other comment that I would add regarding ORH is that if the developer or any its agents (sales team, etc.) ever visit Socketsite and read the postings regarding ORH,
    You have an entire second tower to try and sell, and therefore I would advise you to take immediate action to correct the shortcomings of the inspection and closing process that FrustratedBuyer identifies above. That is simply unacceptable.
    Word of mouth can spread very fast and you may yourself struggling mightily to sell units in the second tower.

  62. Posted by anon

    And that’s why new construction is always a little bit less expensive that secondary market sales.
    I don’t think that’s true at all, in fact I think the opposite is true. When you buy a new development, you are typically buying from a savvy developer who basically holds all the cards rather than from an individual homeowner who may be desperate to sell and is more open to negotiation. My rule of thumb is new properties are generally 10% overpriced. Many people will pay a premium for a new unit.

  63. Posted by kit

    Boy, I dunno where some of you are getting your information…as new owners at “ORH”, as it’s referred to in this site, we’ve been to the building on several occasions since it first opened and have chatted in the lobby with some of the new owners on lower floors who are already in. Nothing I’ve read on this site agrees with anything I heard from at least five new occupants of the building I talked to. What gives…if you can’t say something nice, log on to a site that seems to hate ORH and make something up!!!!!!!!!!

  64. Posted by anonSF

    Have people really moved in already? It still looks like a heavy construction zone.

  65. Posted by anon

    Hallelujah, kit. You hit the nail right on the head. There’s nothing ‘wrong’ with ‘ORH’ – just a lot of people here that have too much time on their hands.

  66. Posted by yo

    i hear that there are a bunch of people that closed with some already moved in. the lobby is still a construction zone and so is the front door / garage and entry way. i wonder why the construction is so much slower than other developments in the area. as i understand it, none of the amenities are ready. no swimming pool, no gym, no theather. i wonder what the owners are paying hoa for. more importantly, are they paying full price or partial.
    i read somewhere that they “may” do a stacker parking system like they do in NY and other places. I walked by and noticed the low ceiling, wonder how they going to pull that off.

  67. Posted by FrustratedBuyer

    FRUSTRATED BUYER HAS GOOD NEWS TO REPORT
    This afternoon we had a second walk through at One Rincon Hill. Our unit is in good shape and we immediately called the title company and instructed it to close the escrow. We have scheduled our welcome to the building orientation and will move in next month after our custom furniture upgrades are installed. We are happy with our purchase and the response of the sales staff to our “complaints.”
    RinconHill_Res at February 21, 2008 10:43 PM wondered if the sales staff was reading the postings. I can assure you that they do. I was welcomed today by my alias “Frustrated Buyer” and we had a long chat about the issues raised by the postings on socketsite.
    My situation was an anamoly. The unit should not have been scheduled for a walk through before it was cleaned up and checked out. It was a mistake, and the developer claims it has taken steps to assure that such mistakes do not occur again.
    I reiterated my dissatisfaction with the policy of discouraging buyers from bringing professional assistance on the walk through, and with the idea of being instructed on how to operate the appliances at the same time that you are looking for defects. I don’t know that these policies will change, but I encouraged the sales staff to do so. As RinconHill_Res points out, satisfying the early occupants will greatly enhance the ongoing marketing program.
    It is a fine building. Although, there is more work to do to finish the amenities, it looks like it will be a great place to live and a good investment.

  68. Posted by One Rincon Hill Resident

    I am a long time resident of Rincon Hill who watched the construction of the Metropolitan and One Rincon Hill from my loft across the street. I am moving to One Rincon Hill next month (yes, I was formerly known on this site as FrustratedBuyer) and thought it would be nice to have a blog for new residents to discuss things of mutual interest and concern. I am not interested in the barrage of disparaging and silly comments that come from some of the contributors that have no interest in building, but I suppose there is no way to stop them. If others are interested, perhaps, the socketsite administrator will set up a new string for us to follow.

  69. Posted by NewRinconResident

    I went into escrow this week on a unit in One Rincon. My experience thus far with the sales office has been positive. I was taken up into the building as the unit I wanted to purchase is finished (on a lower floor), and am very happy with the view and the finishes. The apartment looks gorgeous, and I’m really excited to live in it. The lobby looks sleek and stylish, as does the party room and the rest of the ammenities floor- even the elevators are cool. I read this string and others about One Rincon before going there, so asked them about this policy. Their explanation made sense. Scheduling walk-arounds before the official walk throughs is still premature for many units- especially the higher floors, and would cause delays. When I told them I wanted to see the unit before I completed the contract, they were very accomodating (again) because my unit is finished and ready for viewing.

  70. Posted by ORHBuyersAgent

    I’m an agent for buyers at ORH. Yesterday, we did a walk through with the customer service rep. for the developers of ORH. The process took about 2.5 hours. The buyers asked a few questions and had a lot of comments about their unit – mainly positive.
    There’s a post here from an obviously disgruntled buyer; and I don’t know all the circumstances of their walk thru, but I think the advice they gave (to basically not listen to the presentation) was off the mark. YOU SHOULD LISTEN, AND UNDERSTAND WHAT THE REP IS TELLING YOU. Don’t discount a thing he says – he is there for a very good reason, and not to distract you. If you were “distracted” by his presentation of the technical and practical aspects of your unit, not to mention the safety and security issues, you have only done yourself a dis-service.
    The customer service rep did a very good job. The unit was cleaned that morning and he did set up some of the items to show us how to correct them if they happened to come up. For instance, before the walk thru, he set up one burner on the stove as being installed incorrectly. He showed us the operation of the stove and we noted that one burner had somewhat higher flames. He turned off the stove and showed us that it was installed improperly; and then showed us how to remove the burner and install it correctly. He also explained some very important facts (about the sprinkler system, about water pressure – and how to adjust it once you move in, etc).
    He has a checklist on what he has to say to every buyer at that building and he didn’t seem to deviate from it. Once you go thru each room with him, you are given the chance to look at it quietly to discover defects, bad installations, and ask questions. Once you’ve given him the okay, or pointed out a punch list item-which he records and notes with a blue sticker, you are finished with that room.
    Also, you will be told several times about how to avoid messing with and damaging the fire sprinkler system. Don’t ignore that. You will be told to read the manual for the washer and dryer in your unit BEFORE you ever use them the first time – there’s a damn good reason, and he demonstrated that reason – so pay attention. He will also explain temp. regulation in your unit and how to operate, maintain, and shut off the HVAC systems, and where the manuals are for those. Don’t ignore that. He will tell you what to do if your unit’s smoke detectors go off, and how to get them to go silent. Pay attention to that. You will also be told how to operate your kitchen appliances, and they will be operated for you the first time while you are there. Again, pay attention to this stuff. You are buying high end appliances and using some cutting edge technologies applied to those items; really pay attention and don’t fall for the bad advice that seems to position this presentation as a distraction.
    Now for the buyer who didn’t pay attention, and thought the whole process was a distraction, I sure hope my clients don’t live under you, because you will probably be the one who will make the very mistakes that will cause an event to happen that will not only damage your unit, but perhaps the adjoining ones on your floor, or below yours. By the way…did you pay attention when he told you if that happens, you are responsible for any damage that occurs as a result of a mishap that originates in your unit? …Especially if he explained it to you?
    Another thing, if you ask questions, or make comments about relatively inane situations or otherwise, you will not only lengthen your presentation, you will also forget the important things the presenter has to say. If he’s talking about fit and finish and you see some streaks on the mirror, and you fixate on that, then you have stepped outside the scope of his work and presentation. Get past that and pay attention to the safety and security issues (he’s NOT there to help you choose a paint color, help you identify someone to hang your LCD TV, or advise you on how to rebuild, renovate, or decorate your unit).
    In terms of not having anyone else not on title or not a designated agent to accompany you on the walk thru; remember that ORH is still a construction zone. The upper floors are still being outfitted (especially above 27th floor), and TRH (Two Rincon Hill) is going to be going up shortly. Because of this, I’m sure the developer and sales group are limiting access due to insurance and liability reasons. You’re going to have to abide by their choices and judgements for now. Imagine if you brought your non-titled partner or girlfriend/boyfriend with you and they had an accident on the property – they could sue the HOA, developer and YOU for violating a safety standard. And I’m sure all 300 or so of you buyers would just hate to have to move into a new complex like ORH only to have a lawsuit already pending against your HOA, you or the developer.
    The important things to remember are to be reasonable, understand that you’re going to have to abide by some rules for now, and PAY ATTENTION to your customer service walk thru presentation – take notes!.

  71. Posted by One Rincon Hill Resident

    I was told by the excellent sales team at One Rincon Hill that the developer would be changing its policies and procedures. Based on the last couple of comments (NewRinconResident at February 23, 2008 12:40 PM; ORHBuyersAgent at February 23, 2008 12:50 PM), that appears to be the case, and the pre-closing walk through should now be a positive experience for both buyer and seller. The developer is inspecting and making obvious corrections before releasing the units for the walk through and has loosened up on the policy of prohibiting helpful professionals not on title from participation; and the customer service representative who conducts the walk through has cleaned up his act. This is an excellent site for new residents to have a serious exchange of ideas concerning our new homes — and our comments are noted by the sales staff.

  72. Posted by anonysf

    ORH looks like a construction war zone! How can anyone move in there in its current state?
    And with the common areas, gym, pool, lounge, movie room still not available, I sure hope the new residences aren’t paying full HOA fees. It would be robbery if they had to pay for no services.

  73. Posted by tony

    How’s construction coming on the second tower?

  74. Posted by ex SF-er

    [Referenced comment removed by Editor]
    I for one am overjoyed at this change. I’ve been worried about this for some time now.
    Thanks socketsite, and thanks ORH staff.

  75. Posted by missionbayres

    I’m glad the developer is finally coming to their senses and start doing things in a more professional/conventional manner. Their behavior really gave them a black eye and it’s unfortunate they it had to come to a near revolt from the buyers for them to change. Let’s hope they don’t repeat the same mistakes in the 2nd tower.
    Personally, I’m on the list for the 2nd tower and was thinking of buying there. But with all the negative publicity and their unprofessional and poor treatment toward their clients I’m changing my mind. It’s hard for me to trust them knowing they purposely tried to hide defects or discourage proper inspection of their building…

  76. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    “I’m glad the developer is finally coming to their senses and start doing things in a more professional/conventional manner. Their behavior really gave them a black eye and it’s unfortunate they it had to come to a near revolt from the buyers for them to change. Let’s hope they don’t repeat the same mistakes in the 2nd tower.”
    missionbayres’s comment does point out one absolute truth, whether you’re a fan of ORH or not.
    The power of this blog is immeasurable. Someone please show me how a 180 like this could take place with a developer even 5 years ago absent the power of instant and widespread feedback from real buyers on a blog like this.
    Believe me, the sales staff at ORH reads this blog as religiously as the Sock-aholics do. With the threat of potentially poor 2nd tower sales looming out there, I know these guys will do everything they have to keep their stellar marketing campaign flying high.

  77. Posted by Buyer

    One Rincon vs. Infinity – Phase 2
    Which property would you recommend if I were to buy a unit in the 2nd tower/phase? Who do you see having the best pricing and value? I did notice someone else said they may not buy at ORH because of the issues that occurred.

  78. Posted by viewlover

    I saw some people walking around inside the lower levels, maybe a walk-through as I passed by there this afternoon. The windows are actually pretty large compaed to the size of people inside. I’m sure the views are amazing from in there, and in the end most people who bought there will be happy with their purchase.

  79. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    “One Rincon vs. Infinity – Phase 2
    Which property would you recommend if I were to buy a unit in the 2nd tower/phase? Who do you see having the best pricing and value? I did notice someone else said they may not buy at ORH because of the issues that occurred.”
    It’s all about prioritizing your preferences. I think the Infinity clearly has the better location of the two, but personally I prefer the ORH building and the units themselves to the units at the Infinity. I looked at both and decided the pricing was better at ORH and this was no doubt due to two factors. 1, I reserved on the 2nd day of pre-sales and 2, the location of the Infinity should fetch a higher price point than ORH, no matter whether the units are nicer or not, and that point is not worth debating at all because it’s all opinion, nothing more.
    The only non-debatable point in my view is location, and Infinity wins that one, end of story. I just wasn’t willing to pay a $250K premium for a much lower floor and a unit that, quite frankly, was not spectacular.

  80. Posted by blahhh

    “Which property would you recommend if I were to buy a unit in the 2nd tower/phase? Who do you see having the best pricing and value?”
    I wouldn’t rely too much on others’ recommendations here if you seriously consider buying in any of these new SOMA high rises. You need to do your homework and find out what fits YOU the best. There have been more than enough discussions here on socketsite regarding The Infinity, Millennium, 1Rincon, etc. Do a search. There’s more information than you need from an online source.
    Price wise, the Infinity’s first tower is already anywhere from 15% to 30% higher than 1Rincon after series of price increases. High floor units have sold as much as $2150 psf. The Infinity’s second tower will be “substantially higher” than the first tower. Its real competitor is the Millennium and what will soon pose even bigger threat: Turnberry. I’ve seen drawings of this project. It will take the definition of luxury to a new level for this city. So by value if you mean bigger bang for the buck, then I guess the value is at 1Rincon. For other reasons why people are paying much more at the Infinity and Millennium, the value is with them.
    You can walk into the buildings now. So do that and find out what works for you. There might be some “good deals” right now as developers try to wrap up for second towers.

  81. Posted by Buyer

    Thank you so much for your responses. I am seriously looking at both projects and since move-ins have started in these two projects I wanted current opinions of “real” Buyers. They are both great in many different ways so it helps to have a discussion. I do wonder if the market will bear “substantially higher” prices much longer. If the market turns then that may be a realistic projection, if not then growth may not be as staggering. Just my thoughts… who really knows what will happen.

  82. Posted by infinity buyer

    When is Rincon phase 2 going to break ground? Does anyone know how long it’s going to be delayed?
    Buyer, if you’re interested in Infinity phase 2, try your hardest to get in during the pre-release phase. I’ve experience that if you get in early, the pricing can be pretty attractive. Of course, if there’s a serious market meltdown in SF, then all bets are off.
    Infinity phase 2 is quickly putting their glass curtain wall so I estimate they will finish late 08 or early 09. So if timing is an issue, then go with Infinity since Rincon 2 may take a while. Otherwise, shop around and weigh the pros and cons of each and take your time.
    Good luck.

  83. Posted by anon

    “Which property would you recommend if I were to buy a unit in the 2nd tower/phase? Who do you see having the best pricing and value?”
    OK, I’ll bite ;)
    I bought at the Infinity because the location is much better (really, who wants to live on a freeway onramp?), and the amenities are better (OUTDOOR pool, in SF, on a freeway onramp? no thanks), and the parking situation (valet? no thanks).
    As far as value, I suppose ORH might win, the Infinity is pricey. But my suspicion is that once the buildings are finished, the Infinity will hold its value and appreciate better. I currently live at the Met, and really hate living right near so much traffic. I’ve wondered “what were they thinking” about ORH ever since I heard about it years ago. For me, I would never consider it due it’s terrible location, but I think the building itself and the views are probably pretty good.
    If I were you I’d wait until there are some resales and you can see how each building turns out. I bet you’ll be able to get a good deal on a ORH resale pretty soon. One other factor, I bet there will be significantly more rentals at ORH because of its lower price point.

  84. Posted by infinity buyer

    Here’s another take. People keep saying Infinity is soooo much more expensive than One Rincon. If you deduct the deeded parking, pricing is much closer than you think. Here’s my posting from another post:
    I think both development has it’s pros and cons. I had lunch at Waterbar yesterday and even though it was cloudy and rainy, the location and views were spectacular. After lunch, we took a short, one block stroll to the Infinity to show our friends the courtyard and where the new Boulavard restaurant would be located (yes, we’re big food fans). Then we walked back to the waterfront and my friends kept telling me again and again how beautiful and scenic the whole waterfront neighborhood is.
    I think both developments are wonderful. I got my waterview corner unit above the 28th floor for less than $1000/sqft (got in early). My deeded parking space is worth $75,000. If I deduct $75,000 off my price, then my unit would come out to $915/sqft. Honestly I wouldn’t give up my space for $100,000 now since parking spaces in downtown keeps getting rarer and rarer. For some, views are paramount, for me it’s all about location, neighborhood amenities, and deeded parking space.

  85. Posted by Buyer

    If what you are saying is true anon @ 8:51 AM then I see the real value in the Infinity not Rincon. Value is not in your immediate home purchase but your longterm investment. Also you bring up a good point I need to consider about rentals vs. home owners. Having rented in the past in high end buildings I have not found the same pride of ownership between renters and home owners.
    I think that before resales hit the market there may be returns to the market that I will watch for as well. Money is far more expensive today than it was 2-3 years ago and some buyers may elect to downsize or just walk away. In any event I plan to keep a close eye on both projects before I make a final decision.
    Thank you to Socketsite for a great forum to interact with members of both communities and more!

  86. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    “The only non-debatable point in my view is location, and Infinity wins that one, end of story. I just wasn’t willing to pay a $250K premium for a much lower floor and a unit that, quite frankly, was not spectacular.”
    RinconHill_Res,
    You make an extremely accurate observation in the aforementioned quotation. The Infinity’s location is without question the better of the two. A slight caveat – the Infinity is built on landfill while ORH is pretty solid bedrock, which may be a plus point when the big one hits. Then again, if it’s a really huge one, we are all doomed!
    The price point differential of $250K is accurate and I agree that it’s not nearly justified by the location, especially since the two buildings are a mere 3 short blocks away from one another. Let’s face it, both are pretty much in the same ‘neighborhood’ … this is not like comparing the Sunset to Seacliff.
    A couple of other things to consider. The views at ORH, certainly for the price point, are dramatically superior to the Infinity. Let’s not forget that Infinity Tower One will have [proposed] new construction surrounding it to the west [Twin Peaks views] and to the North [city views], plus views of the Bay Bridge are already obscured by Tower Two to the south-east. So, Infinity dwellers should get ready for even more compromised views, something that won’t be a factor at ORH Tower One for the forseeable future.
    As you know as an ORH resident, you also had a choice of finishes and weren’t stuck with the bland white cabinets in the kitchens and the IKEA looking cabinets in the bathrooms as is the case at the Infinity. For the extra premium at the Infinity, one would expect better. The Sales Office “argument” [during a visit there in January '08] is that the building and the views are so amazing, you forget about the fixtures. That’s a slick way of saying you are stuck with the standard stuff, and are paying for it. In my opinion, the standard finishes in both the kitchens and the bathrooms at ORH were nicer … plus you had option to upgrade if you didn’t care for them. For us, this was another huge plus point for ORH.
    The ORH negatives – it’s definitely noisy with passing cars when we are out on our balcony. We would probably prefer and indoor pool but at least the outdoor one will be heated. That whole area is still very much a work in progress, so the jury is still out, to some degree. The gym for Tower I is way small, but I guess the “larger gym” with attached aerobics studio will be at the second tower. To be fair, we rarely use the pool/jacuzzi [although it's nice that its there] the gym is important to us, so the current situation is a bit of a bummer.
    For us, on a net net basis, while there are positives and negatives for both the Infinity and ORH, the positives at ORH outweigh the negatives, as things stand. The $250K price differential isn’t close to being justified, in my view.

  87. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    “Here’s another take. People keep saying Infinity is soooo much more expensive than One Rincon. If you deduct the deeded parking, pricing is much closer than you think. Here’s my posting from another post:”
    Infinity buyer,
    This is my response to your posting from another posting, with my response also largely taken from a previous post :-) I think that even with the cost of parking factored in, the Infinity is still significantly more expensive –
    In order to create a ‘fair’ comparison between ORH and the Infinity, I estimated that my cost basis at ORH at 800 per sq. ft. The calculation breaks down as follows – $725 per sq ft [actual cost] including hardwood floor upgrades, carpet upgrade, shower stall upgrade, custom window blinds, and custom closets in the master bedroom [small walk in closet] and linen closet. However, to compare apples to apples, I added another $75 per sq. ft [hence the total of $800 per sq. ft] which comes to a parking space cost of around $96000, because we don’t have a deeded parking spot. We are not huge fans of valet parking, but, to be fair, we do have one parking spot we can avail of, even if it isn’t deeded.
    Accordingly, I think using $800 compares apples to apples [or as close as I could come] for our unit versus the Infinity. Our unit is on the 11th floor … which is actually more like the 6th floor. Our 2/2 unit has floor to ceiling bedroom views of the bay, the south beach marina and will get great sunrises reflecting off the water during the summer. Having lived at the Metropolitan [with similar views] this visual is something we treasure. We also have Twin Peaks views from our living/dining area … these are okay, but importantly neither will be obsured by any proposed new construction. Clearly this is not the case for the Twin Peaks [and City] views at the Infinity. Moreover, with all the upgrades we ordered, we move into a condo with all of our desired features, with just a few items that needed to be ‘fixed’ from our walkthough. We didn’t see anything that came near to this $800 per sq. ft price point, with comparable views and upgrades factored in at the Infinity … not even close!

  88. Posted by anonconfused

    I have always been curious about whether or not there is traffic noise in a unit like the one “Recent ORH Buyer” is purchasing, since it sounds like it is only 6 floors above the freeway. Can you hear the cars when the windows are shut? I drive by here almost 4 times a week, and it will be interesting to see how the lower floor units next to the freeway deal with privacy issues vs. “enjoying the view”.

  89. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    anonconfused –
    It is noisy on the balcony but pretty silent when all windows are shut. With the tinted glass and the cars passing by at a steady pace, we aren’t too concerned about privacy. We will see some spectacular summer sunrises, and our unit also gets ‘partial’ sunsets – these, for us, far outweigh any possible privacy issues. However, when buildings are built right next to you and you can see your neighbors across the road or across the courtyard [as is/will be the case at the Infinity] that would be far more of a privacy concern for us.

  90. Posted by 94114

    I find this continuing feud between the new ORH and Infinity buyers amusing, especially when it comes to “value”. If one is looking for value you don’t buy a condo in a declining market in a brand new building in a non-neighborhood where association fees start in the 600’s.

  91. Posted by missionbayres

    The original question was whether to buy in Tower 2 in One Rincon or Infinity.
    Well, currently (and technically) there IS NO tower 2 at One Rincon. There is a tower 2 at Infinity that will top off in a couple weeks and will open sales this summer. We have to assume prices will be higher at Infinity 2, as well as Rincon 2 (whenever it gets built), but with no solid pricing info, the augments over value at the future towers is purely speculation.
    I work with 2 agents in SF, and both have said One Rincon has an unusually high number of investors. Any savvy real estate investor knows – Investors = rental units.
    One Rincon will have great views, but so will Millennium and Infinity 2. In fact the two waterfront corners units at Infinity will have unobstructed bridge and water views forever (as will Rincon 2’s waterfront corner units)
    Infinity will have the best location as well as deeded parking spaces (some buyers will even have the opportunity to buy 2 spaces and/or enclosed garage spaces). As I’ve said before, you can always upgrade the interior of a unit, but you can’t upgrade a location or upgrade to deeded parking if it’s not available.
    Rincon’s onramp will be an ongoing sore point forever. If they could only move the onramp it will substantially improve the quality of life on that block and aleviate gridlock traffic, pollution, and noise. Unfortunately it’s not going away, nor is the 5 lane freeway a few feet away.

  92. Posted by Mystery Realtor

    Hi;
    This may have already been covered, but under California law, both the buyer’s agent and the seller’s agent are required to perform a visual inspection prior to closing. There is no getting around this one. Also, you are allowed to bring through as many property inspectors as you deem necessary. An architect would fall into this category. I don’t know who in the marketing dept dreamed up this latest policy, but it is illegal, even if it is written in the contract because a contract for an illegal act, voids the contract.
    M.R.

  93. Posted by incredirent

    Has anyone seen the number of ads on Craigslist for 1BR apartments for rent at Rincon Hill? There must be over 30, ranging from $2800-3500.
    Do these investors really think there is that much demand for expensive 1BR rentals? I can’t wait to see them undercutting each other. Then, when they realize the rent can’t cover the mortgage, they’ll go back on the MLS.

  94. Posted by incredirent

    And 80% of the building hasn’t closed escrow yet. Yikes!

  95. Posted by Buyer

    Regarding Rincon/Infinity rentals I read another Socketsite posters comment to beware of signing leases with individual owners who rent apartments. If the owner forecloses you risk loosing your deposit and apartment. He/She advised investigating the landlord much like you are investigated. With Buyers walking away from their responsibilities and foreclosing today it is imperative that you protect yourself and know who you are renting from.

  96. Posted by jon

    So if they have 80 to 90 percent to close then should over 250 rentals by the time they finish. Man, talk about apartment city. That will negatively affect value and quality of life there if that happens. It should be very interesting to watch.

  97. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    “Has anyone seen the number of ads on Craigslist for 1BR apartments for rent at Rincon Hill? There must be over 30, ranging from $2800-3500.
    Do these investors really think there is that much demand for expensive 1BR rentals? I can’t wait to see them undercutting each other. Then, when they realize the rent can’t cover the mortgage, they’ll go back on the MLS.”
    incredirent –
    I’m getting a strange feeling that a number of the anti ORH/pro Infinity posts here may be posted by the Infinity Sales Office. I hear foot traffic to that office is currently pretty slim, so they may have a fair amount of time on their hands.
    Point well taken [and sadly so] that ORH does seem to have a large number of rentals, although I think 30 is a bit of an exaggeration. There are a fair number of Infinity rentals too [something you failed to mention] including one asking for $3750 for a “ultra-luxurious” one bedroom plus $5500 and $5995 for two bedrooms on Craigslist. Given that the latter sum would cover my mortgage, condo fees and property taxes at ORH [with a little to spare] I say good luck with that rental. Not sure how many people would opt to rent if they could fork over close to $6K a month, but I suppose hope springs eternal.

  98. Posted by anon

    I’m getting a strange feeling that a number of the anti ORH/pro Infinity posts here may be posted by the Infinity Sales Office.
    I seriously doubt that. There are enough people who dislike ORH without the need for the sales office to chime in, besides, they are a class act. The reason the sales office might be slow is because there isn’t much inventory left.
    I can’t figure out what people are thinking with renting these units out (in either building), they aren’t going to pay for themselves unless you put down some absurd amount of money.
    My bet, however, is that many of the people who were so happy with the relatively low price point of ORH will be disappointed when they realize that low price attracted investors who will be renting out their units. However, all buildings in SF that don’t have rental restrictions are pretty much in the same boat. Many are close to 50% rentals.

  99. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    “I seriously doubt that. There are enough people who dislike ORH without the need for the sales office to chime in, besides, they are a class act. The reason the sales office might be slow is because there isn’t much inventory left.”
    Anon –
    Funny that you should mention inventory. First time we went to the Infinity Sales office we are told that there were just four or five 2 bedrooms left in the entire building. This was sometime during the first quarter of 2007.
    Fast forward to a recent visit in January 2008. All of a sudden there are two bedrooms available from floors 9 through 21 in a stack/floorplan facing the city … oops, currently facing the city but soon to be looking into the side of another building to the north. There were also 1-2 others [different floorplans] that had just ‘magically appeared’ that day as well.
    The limited inventory story at the Infinity is a tired smoke and mirrors act that has been played for quite some time. I really don’t think that’s reason for less traffic there … there’s always more units that appear from behind the curtain.
    I guess everyone has a different definition of what constitutes a “class act” … I think “magic act” [look at this inventory that suddenly appeared ... you really should grab it] is more like it.

  100. Posted by missionbayres

    Recent ORH buyer,
    You seem to have an ongoing obsession with bashing Infinity’s sales team and how the towers will be 100% surrounded by new buildings (which is not true). How many times have you mentioned that? Have you noticed Infinity is located in an urban environment with many, many nice tall buildings around? Now sure if that’s really sooooo bad?? At least it’s not 5 feet from a 5 lane freeway. I’d rather be surrounded by buildings, than be surrounded by a freeway onramp and a 5 lane freeway.
    Also, many times over we’ve seen nothing but praise over the way Infinity’s sale office has conducted themselves. I have no connection or interest in Infinity, but do know a couple of the sales staff there. They are professional and dedicated people.
    And if I’m not mistaken, isn’t One Rincon that one that wouldn’t allow buyer’s agents, inspectors, or friends into the building? As another agent already mention, it is illegal to not allow proper inspection of a property. If I were you, I would have animosity over One Rincon’s behavior, not the other way around…

  101. Posted by missionbayres

    Recent ORH buyer,
    Also regarding posting comments in a blog. There’s ways to determine whether posts come from a single source (ip address, etc) or many.
    If all Rincon bashers/critics came from a single or few ip addresses, Socketsite can block those postings since they most likely came from the same person using various alias. Since these postings all came from different addresses, they’re most likely from people all over the Bay Area, state, and beyond…

  102. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    “You seem to have an ongoing obsession with bashing Infinity’s sales team and how the towers will be 100% surrounded by new buildings (which is not true).”
    Missionbayres –
    To be honest, I’m just recounting my experiences with the sales office – if that constitutes “bashing” then so be it. I’m guessing that if you had a similar experience, where a sales team thought they to play you for the fool, you would let it be known too.
    I don’t agree with the onerous restrictions that ORH had on inspections either – the two are not mutually exclusive. I haven’t mentioned it because our unit happened to be in really good shape. However, your point is well taken, and I think they have changed their tune since then.
    In terms of the Infinity being “100% surrounded”, I’d love to see where I used those exact words. I have said that Tower One will be surrounded to the North [as per the SALES OFFICE] to the West, and to the south-east by tower two. So, it means that just 60-70% of the views will be impaired … that’s still pretty bad. And correct me if I’m wrong [given that your "friends" work at the Infinity] I believe that the same developer that is building the Infinity is also building 201 Folsom? That’s the 201 Folsom Towers that will block views that face west.
    So, if you were an Infinity buyer that bought units that faced west [ranging from $900-$1100 per sq ft. I believe] the same developer that you paid those elevated rates will be constructing another new development to block out your Twin Peaks view. All I’m saying is that if I were in that predicament, I would be furious.
    I agree that the bridge/highway being right next to ORH is not ideal, but I made a decision to purchase knowing that. It’s not like the ORH developer built out that highway after the fact.

  103. Posted by missionbayres

    Renzo Piano towers
    Transbay tower
    181 Fremont
    Intercontinental Hotel
    555 Mission
    201 Folsom Towers
    etc….
    All new towers going up in downtown SF. Many 1000ft high and beyond. Of course views will be blocked (it’s called progress). Those that do their homework should know these things and in fact, Infinity’s office has the 201 Folsom Towers in their renditions already so no secret there.
    If buyers at Infinity are furious, then so are buyers at Millennium, Ritz, Regis, etc… as they will all have parts of their views blocked by progress. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing at all. I’m actually excited we will have new buildings creating new neighborhoods!
    How’s your block coming along?

  104. Posted by view lover

    Both buildings are new and probably the dwellings themselves are nice, which is ultimately what counts.
    If I were looking at Infinity due to better location, it would probably make sense to buy a larger unit on a lower floor given that views are going to be obstructed anyway, and without the view, there is no sense in putting up with vertigo or paying more than you have to. If I were looking for views that were more permanent, I’d go for a higher floor on ORH for about the same money.
    Point is that both of these units have something to offer, not for everyone, but there are choices, new and can be customized to some extent. I guess people don’t remember when all you could buy in this town were old Victorians even if you had the money.

  105. Posted by anon

    It seems to me that the unobstructed views from some units in ORH is pretty much the only thing going for the building. (And when Turnberry and the Californian, and tower 2 goes up, many of those will be blocked as well). Personally, a view is not important enough to me to want to live on a freeway.
    Views in a city are always going to change. As the poster above mentioned, the sales team at the Infinity never represented protected views or tried to pretend that there wouldn’t be buildings going up all around it. It’s funny that people will say “ORH has unobstructed views!” on the one hand and then “it won’t stick out like sore thumb when all the new buildings get built nearby!” Seems like the two views are contradictory for the majority of the ORH units.
    Disclosure: I bought a treetop unit at the Infinity, knowing full well that my view will change when more buildings go up. I can’t wait!

  106. Posted by 94114

    Please put this ORH/Infinity feud to bed! Neither side seems able to convince the other to see their side. It all sounds like the third grade to me.

  107. Posted by incredirent

    Recent ORH Buyer –
    I can guarantee I am not involved in real estate, nor have I any vested interest in either Infinity or Rincon Hill
    Your’e right that 30 listings were an overstatement, more like 15 (on cragislist, at least), but given the fact that the building just opened, and most people haven’t even closed escrow, i would be a little nervous that all of these units may find their way to resale.
    here is a sampling. competition is a consumer’s best friend, is it not?
    $4700 / 2br – AMAZING One Rincon View Home
    $2850 / 1br – Brand New One Bedroom Rincon Hill View Condominium –
    $2750 / 1br – LUXURY Downtown SF Skyscraper Condo for RENT
    $3300 / 1br – 1br at One Rincon Hill coming in March
    $3300 / 1br – Excellent new construction on Rincon Hill! {photos} 415-608-3050
    $2995 / 1br – MUST SEE BRAND NEW CONDO@RINCON HILL GREAT LOCATION, AMENITIES
    $2995 / 1br – Luxurious 1 Bed 1 Bath Condo w/ Water & City Views, Balcony for Rent –
    $2900 / 1br – Luxury One Bedroom (14th floor) at One Rincon Hill –
    $2995 / 1br – SOMA, Spectacular View of Bay Bridge and City in Rincon Hill –
    $2995 / 1br – 451227 Live in the tallest residental building West of the Mississippi –
    Yikes!

  108. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    Missionbayres –
    You and I clearly have differences of opinion, and that’s fair enough, as Socketsite [as I understand it] is supposed to be a forum for discussion of real estate issues. However, I must say that you are an unusually passionate defender of the Infinity and particularly its sales staff for someone that has “no connection or interest in [the] Infinity”. However, you do concede that you have ‘friends’ or “know a couple” of the sales staff. It’s sounding increasingly like the guy who went to the doctor with [say] herpes and decribed the symptoms to the doctor as something that his ‘friend’ had and wanted to know the treatment that his ‘friend’ should take. Just a hunch that the Infinity connection is far closer than you have declared.
    As I’ve said before, I consider the entire Rincon Hill area, right down to the Embarcadero, to be “my” neighborhood, including the Infinity itself. I think the fact the Boulevard II will be there is great for me and probably a number of ORH residents … its just 3 short blocks away. I’m all for progress and new buildings, just as long as I don’t have to look straight into their living room every morning. Buildings around the Infinity are fine, as long as they don’t impede my view … may sound self-centered, but that’s why I purchased where I did. I guess I’m just mystified that others are willing to pay several hundred dollars per square foot more to potentially look out on other people’s living space and be stuck with [in my view] bland white kitchens and uninspired bathroom cabinets.
    I do concur that the location [albeit a mere 1.5 blocks from the bridge/freeway itself] and parking situation are definite positives for the Infinity. However, for my money, they don’t come close to overcoming the views and fixture issues. That’s just my [rather strong] opinion, and as a new ORH owner, I have no problems passionately stating it. Don’t take it personally missionbayres.

  109. Posted by Sfres

    For a building that just started closing escrow thats an incredibly large amount of investors indeed. I second the yikes! I actually found the finishes and material cheap so maybe the developer knew it would turn into an apartment complex.

  110. Posted by missionbayres

    Recent ORH buyer,
    You seem to *really* want me to have an affiliation to the sales team. Frankly I’m starting to find it hard to understand your passion (it’s almost comical now). I like Infinity, but I also like Arterra (do I work at Arterra now as well?)
    Maybe tomorrow I’ll go apply at Infinity as a receptionist or something (I don’t have a RE license), then that will make you feel better ;-)
    Honestly I don’t take it personally. It’s all fun and games to me. I’ve been investing in RE since 2001 and have had properties in Las Vegas, Fremont, SF, and the peninsula.
    I live in SF now and think Infinity is a nice project and will probably buy in the 2nd building. I thought of buying in Rincon tower 2 as an investment, but I don’t know when that will ever get built (why the delay?). Also, I no longer trust the sales team and there’s already too many investors/renters in that complex.

  111. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    It’s comical that some people find that the presence of investors as purchasers of highrise condos like ORH somehow equates to a low grade investment or substandard residential project.
    You’ve actually got it all wrong. People invest in property to make a return on their investment. If all the person was looking to do was acquire place to live, I’d actually be more suspicious about the quality of the project because few investors is a sign that people don’t think that there is upside in the property.
    Look, these aren’t single family homes, they are 800-1200 sq/ft condos located near downtown SF. For anyone to expect the Infinity, ORH or the Millennium to be populated with 99% owner/residents is just not realistic. Granted, I am an owner/resident, but I would always consider myself in the minority given the type of property that I we’re talking about.
    The above comments have absolutely no substantive merit in determining the value of the investment in a 5-7 year time frame not matter whether the owner is an investor or a resident. Trust me, the X factor here is the development of the neighborhood. If the neighborhood develops along the lines that it has been planned so far, this property is an absolute gold mine. If it doesn’t, then you’re probably looking at a substantially reduced return because very people would want to live in ORH in the current state of the immediate surrounding area.
    But again, I point to the time frame that one is looking at. If you are making the above comments in the context of a 2-3 year time frame, I can’t say that you’re completely wrong because it’s just not long enough for the investment to season. However, if you move that out to 5-7 years, I would strongly disagree and am willing to bet, and in fact have bet, that the units will appreciate substantially.

  112. Posted by Top_of_the_hill

    “I actually found the finishes and material cheap so maybe the developer knew it would turn into an apartment complex.”
    Sfres,
    You mustn’t know very much about finishings if you think Del Tongo qualifies as cheap. Del Tongo are the cabinets in all the kitchens and in the bathrooms at ORH. If you happened not to like one of the styles, there were plenty of choices to choose from. The following may be educational for you –
    Del Tongo is a family-owned kitchen company out of Arezo, Italy that begun its first production in 1954; the year 2005 marked its 6th anniversary in the American market. The company has fully adopted to American standards, lifestyle, appliances and incorporated that into their cabinetry design.
    Del Tongo’s intent, in terms of design, is to create a product that could be easily recognized through its modern contents yet at the same time with an abstract memory. Del Tongo’s design’s range from the most “simple” of products right through to the most technologically advanced and sophisticated, including their important contribution to the world of fashion through the design of their numerous collections and coordinated kitchen accessories.
    Our kitchens are modern, minimalist and geometric. The characteristics include horizontal lines, asymmetry and a lack of molding and other ornamentation in kitchens. Materials are man-made and natural: stainless steel, lacquer, laminate, frosted glass inserts, concrete, cherry and oak wood, chrome and aluminum. Today, more than ever, kitchens are the hearts of homes, serving as the hub of the house, the gateway to the great room, the star of many a renovation fantasy and the putative symbol of self worth. Italian kitchens have always presented the kind of everyday art that inspires entire house. Del Tongo kitchens have provided an important contribution to the statement “MADE IN ITALY”. The partnership between the elegant taste of international design and reality of Del Tongo kitchens have led to the creation of a range of models of kitchens capable of interpreting the life style of the end user. Some kitchens are exclusively designed by Makio Hasuike: an internationally accredited designer and Giorgetto Giugiaro Design, the company that also created pleasant institutions for the automobile industry. Del Tongo collections are versatile in representing soft lines, curves and winding shapes, as well as clean design of sharp corners, use of precious materials and variety of finishes and colors. With Del Tongo kitchens you can create fresh couplings following one’s personal style: contemporary, creative and trendy!

  113. Posted by viewlover

    I’m a little confused. $3000 monthly cashflow only covers the interest on $600K, if that’s the purchase price of these units at 6%. Once you add the taxes and hoas, you can add at least another grand of costs. This can be offset by a down payment, but by how much? With $100K down, the monthly costs are reduced by only $300. or another $300 with 20% down. $2,400 interest, $580 for taxes…oops only have $20 buck left for HOA’s.
    Maybe the investors behind these units are the developers.

  114. Posted by sf anon

    $4700 / 2br – AMAZING One Rincon View Home – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2850 / 1br – Brand New One Bedroom Rincon Hill View Condominium – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2750 / 1br – LUXURY Downtown SF Skyscraper Condo for RENT – (SOMA / south beach) pic
    $3000 / 1br – 1 BR Condo at One Rincon Center – (SOMA / south beach)
    $3300 / 1br – 1br at One Rincon Hill coming in March – (SOMA / south beach) pic
    $3300 / 1br – Excellent new construction on Rincon Hill! {photos} 415-608-3050 – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2995 / 1br – High in the sky with views & deck! – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2995 / 1br – MUST SEE BRAND NEW CONDO@RINCON HILL GREAT LOCATION, AMENITIES – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2100 Embarcadero Highrise Studio with Balcony – RINCON – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2995 / 1br – Luxurious 1 Bed 1 Bath Condo w/ Water & City Views, Balcony for Rent – (SOMA / south beach) pic
    $2400 Highrise one-bedroom with bay views RINCON – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2900 / 2br – Highrise Apt. Fantastic Location, Great Views, Balcony. RINCON – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2900 / 1br – Luxury One Bedroom (14th floor) at One Rincon Hill – (SOMA / south beach) pic
    $2995 / 1br – SOMA, Spectacular View of Bay Bridge and City in Rincon Hill – (SOMA / south beach) pic
    $2995 / 1br – 451227 Live in the tallest residental building West of the Mississippi – (SOMA / south beach)
    $2900 / 1br – One Rincon Hill #1805 Views! Views! Views! >>> SKYBOX REALTY >> SKYBOX REALTY

  115. Posted by incredirent

    Did someone really make the argument that a buidling filled with investors is a better bet than one full of owners? Seriously?
    I guess Rinconhill Res would rather live in Sacramento (think investors) rather than Piedmont or Marin (think owners). Of course, Sacramento is down 30%, whereas Marin and Piedmont continue to prosper.
    The problem is investors (including international saviors) typically cut their losses, whereas owners and families are more apt to wait things out.

  116. Posted by anon

    You’ve actually got it all wrong. People invest in property to make a return on their investment. If all the person was looking to do was acquire place to live, I’d actually be more suspicious about the quality of the project because few investors is a sign that people don’t think that there is upside in the property.
    Sorry, but that makes NO sense at all. Sounds like a stretch to me. In any large development in SF there will be a significant number of renters, but no-one will deny that renters are NOT as desirable as owners and will contribute to a lower quality of life (and thus price).

  117. Posted by RinconHill_Res

    “Sorry, but that makes NO sense at all. Sounds like a stretch to me. In any large development in SF there will be a significant number of renters, but no-one will deny that renters are NOT as desirable as owners and will contribute to a lower quality of life (and thus price).”
    Think about the ridiculous statement you just made. Most of the people in this city are renters so you’ve basically just said that the quality of life in the city is a lower quality.
    That statement just doesn’t fly in this city, not to mention the fact that these renters won’t exactly be paying peanuts to rent these units.
    Try again.

  118. Posted by anon sf

    No the statement does fly. Have you ever lived at Avalon or any highend apartment complexes? I have and despite the super high rents, many of the tenants trash the place. Spilled coffee in the elevator and lobby, trash and recycled materials left in the hallways, dog poop in the courtyard, cigarette buds in the garages and building entrance, noisy, rude tenants, the list goes on and on. And these people pay the highest rents in the city.
    Now I’m not saying all tenants are bad (I’m a tenant myself), but there’s always enough of them to degrade the quality of life in any building.
    The Brannan is a good example of owners taking care of the place. The ratio of renters are lower thus the quality of life higher.
    Looks like Rincon will be majority renters and that’s worrisome for a condo building.

  119. Posted by One Rincon Hill Resident

    It is amusing and disconcerting to read some of the posts concerning One Rincon Hill and the Infinity. I doubt that many of the commentators are actual owners, have spent much time in the neighborhood, or have years and years of experience living in high end condominium buildings.
    My wife and I are native San Franciscans who have been living in large multiunit condominium buildings for almost twenty-five years. We moved from a well appointed building at the foot of Telegraph Hill to a large loft on Rincon Hill when the land under The Metropolitan was still a parking lot. We lived through the evolution of the neighborhood. Having tired of industrial chic, we decided to downsize to a two bedroom apartment at One Rincon Hill in order to again have access to the many amenities that come with living in a new high end high rise building. We have not been disappointed. The elevators are fast and reliable. The common areas that are completed are well designed. Those that are still being finished, such as the swimming pool and outdoor space, will doubtless be just as nice. The services (concierge, valet parking, etc.) are excellent. This is real upscale living.
    The location is outstanding. Just a short walk to Bart and Muni Metro, and to Whole Foods and/or Safeway in South Beach. In my car, I make a left turn at the corner of First and Harrison and I am on the Bay Bridge. The view from my NE corner apartment includes AT&T Park at one end and Treasure Island at the other end, and between those bookends a panoramic view of the San Francisco skyscape, including Twin Peaks and the Bank of America Building. When the buildings being planned are constructed (such as 45 Lansing) the view will only be improved.
    When I want to hear the sounds of the city and watch the cars on the Bay Bridge freeway, I step out onto the balcony. There is no street noise inside the apartment. I am simply oblivious to the traffic congestion many floors below on First Street.
    I am not surprised that many of the units in these new highrises have been purchsed by non-resident investors. It is a good investment for them, just as it is a good investment for me. In any high density building there are good neighbors and less than good neighbors. My personal experience has been that the renters are often more considerate than the owners.
    The Infinity is probably just as nice a building. I don’t know. I haven’t been inside it. I did see the model and heard the sales pitch. It looked good. To those of you who have bought a unit at either of these new buildings — Good Luck. I think we are in the vanguard of the 21st century San Francisco life style, and we have made good investments.

  120. Posted by One Rincon Hill Resident

    Before the critics attack, I want to make a correction. My unit is in the NW corner of the building, and, yes, I really do have a view of the ballpark to the southwest and Treasure Island to the northeast.

  121. Posted by anon

    Think about the ridiculous statement you just made. Most of the people in this city are renters so you’ve basically just said that the quality of life in the city is a lower quality
    Yes, it’s true, and banks and all the smart money think the same way. That’s why they prefer to lend to buildings with a lower renter-to-owner ratios and why loans for primary residences are cheaper. THEY know owners take better care of a place than renters. Not in every case, of course, but as a rule it’s undeniable.

  122. Posted by J-LEE

    “Wow, I just counted over 20 ads for rent on Craigslist. Here’s just a sampling. Del Tongo or no Del Tongo, the place may not be as luxurious if it’s overrun with tenants. I’m shocked to see this many and the place just started closing. Scary is it not?”
    Just for fun I thought I would check Craigslist and guess what I found?
    I’m shocked to see this many ads and the place has just started closing. Scary is it not!!!
    Feb 28 – $3500 / 1br – Infinity – 1 bed 1 bath – luxury view condo – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 27 – $8500 / 2br – 1800+ sq ft large 2bd+den, 2.5 bath in THE INFINITY brand new building – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 27 – $5700 THE INFINITY – BEAUTIFUL BRAND NEW BUILDING – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 26 – $3800 / 2br – INFINITY- Brand New Luxury 2BR/2BA SOMA – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 26 – $3750 / 1br – Ultra-Luxurious One Bedroom with view at the INFINITY! – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 24 – $5500 / 2br – INFINITY- Brand New Luxury 2BR/2BA CORNER UNIT W/CITY VIEWS – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 24 – $5995 / 2br – The Infinity brand new luxury condo – (SOMA / south beach)
    Feb 23 – $2900 / 1br – Luxury One Bedroom at the Infinity! >>> SKYBOX REALTY

  123. Posted by anon

    J-LEE, these investors wanted to flip right away but they know there is no way they will get close to what they paid for their places. So they are renting them out with the (futile) hope that the market might rebound soon. That is not “Smart $” but an attempt to salvage something from a bet gone bad.

  124. Posted by infinity buyer

    Just for fun I took a look at Craigslist ads again, searching the keywords ‘Rincon’, then ‘Infinity’.
    The numbers at exactly 11.40pm:
    23 rentals at One Rincon.
    8 rentals at Infinity.
    Not bashing anyone or anything, just telling as I saw it on craigslist.
    Almost a 3 times more rentals at One Rincon than Infinity. Of course this number is fluid and changes all the time. Guess we’ll see when the projects are complete.

  125. Posted by SkyGuy

    Not all the craigslist ads that mention the word “Rincon” are for One Rincon Hill (follow the links and you’ll see). But for those who are concerned about “too many” renters, what percentage would you consider “too many”? I don’t know how many units are currently open at ORH, but ultimately it will have 376, rather more than at Infinity.

  126. Posted by SkyGuy

    Not all the craigslist ads that mention the word “Rincon” are for One Rincon Hill (follow the links and you’ll see). But for those who are concerned about “too many” renters, what percentage would you consider “too many”? I don’t know how many units are currently open at ORH, but ultimately it will have 376, rather more than at Infinity.

  127. Posted by infinity buyer

    I did opened the links and filtered out the ‘non’ Infinity/Rincon ads. Otherwise there would be something like 30 Rincons ads and 12 Infinity ads.
    IMO, anything over 35-40% renters is quite a high number.

  128. Posted by JSchwantz

    missionbayres,
    My friend is planning to buy a unit in the 2nd tower. The fact is the market is anemic and supple of condos is on the rise- prices in the 2nd tower will be the same or less than the first tower, even with the better views. I don’t believe the friendly sales team when they tell me that prices will continue to rise. You are wise and I wish I had waited for the 2nd tower.

  129. Posted by J-LEE

    Posted by: anon at February 28, 2008 7:27 PM
    “J-LEE, these investors wanted to flip right away but they know there is no way they will get close to what they paid for their places. So they are renting them out with the (futile) hope that the market might rebound soon. That is not “Smart $” but an attempt to salvage something from a bet gone bad.”
    It seems you are either naive or uninformed about the Luxury Condo market in SF, and the 2 new projects in particluar.
    FYI…I have lived in a luxury building in the South Beach area for several years and in South Beach for over 10 years. I have a pretty good understanding of the market.
    As far as investors in One Rincon, all made the purchase with the requirement that they could not sell until they have owned the property for one year. I am fairly certain that requirement is also true at Infinity, Millenium, etc. This is intented to reduce the speculators that might try to flip quickly. Anyone buying and not planning on living in any new project made the purchase with the intent of renting for at least one year.
    Any owner of a unit in one of these new buildings (completed or planned) should get used to the idea that a sizeable % of the units are not owner occupied. Many are second homes or investments.

  130. Posted by anon

    J-Lee, nope, not naive or uninformed. Read the “no sales for 1-year clause.” It has so many exceptions it is a nullity. Heck, units are already listed for sale on Craigslist.

  131. Posted by missionbayres

    “Any owner of a unit in one of these new buildings (completed or planned) should get used to the idea that a sizeable % of the units are not owner occupied. Many are second homes or investments.”
    J-Lee,
    That is partially true. In fact Watermark and Met are routinely 40-50% occupied at any given time. But even in those building, owner occupied or second homes are the majority and renters compromise a smaller % of the occupied units.
    With One Rincon just starting to close, and 20+ units already for rent, looks like they will have a much higher ratio of renters vs owner occupied or second homes.

  132. Posted by Recent ORH buyer

    “Your’e right that 30 listings were an overstatement, more like 15 (on cragislist, at least), but given the fact that the building just opened, and most people haven’t even closed escrow, i would be a little nervous that all of these units may find their way to resale.”
    Incredirent,
    I think a fair point is made about the number of rentals at ORH. I believe the developer may have miscalculated the optimal number of one bedroom units for the building, hence of the 3% remaining unsold units I believe all are one bedrooms. It seems like these are the majority of units finding their way to the rental market. I agree that excessively large numbers of rentals are not good for a building.
    However, there are a couple of points worth noting. A larger number of units have currently closed at ORH than the Infinity [at least I understand this to be the case] plus the ORH Tower I has far larger number of units than Infinity Tower I. Hence the PERCENTAGE of renters at ORH [relative to the overall number of units] may not be as high as the absolute number leads one to believe. Also, some of the Craigslist postings at ORH are for units “coming in May/coming soon” so not all are available at the present moment. Accordingly, more rentals may emerge at the Infinity as units continue to close.
    In addition those that have read my earlier postings may be aware of the unscrupulous availablility/unavailability of inventory tactics that I experienced with the Infinity Sales team. I know full well that I could be sued for libel if what I post here were untrue. However what I have written is exactly as it happened. Missionbayres – calling the Infinity staff “professional and dedicated people” – now that’s the true comical statement.
    I conceded that the higher rentals at ORH are not a positive trend. However, if the estimates of 20% or more inventory remaining at Infinity I are accurate, pretty soon they are going to have to have some sizable price reductions, else they will never start selling Tower II. I believe others have posted ‘whispers’ of incentives already quietly being offered. So, those that paid $1000+ per sq ft [and some as high as $1300 per sq. ft] are not going to be thrilled when prices fall to [say] 800-900 per sq ft. So, as current Infinity owners see their equity consistently marked to market at lower and lower levels than they paid, that will be the real pain. The rental effect will seem like an afterthought by comparison.

  133. Posted by experienced at 1,rincon hill

    after being heavily involved at rincon hill,for over 1 year during construction,the descriptions of the walk-through horror stories,are just a precursor of what is to come, if you happen to be foolish enough to purchase there. you will be hoodwinked. thru-out the const. process, there were many problems that were hidden in the walls and swept under the rug and never fixed,as the people who live there will no doubtedly encounter..such as,forgotten rebar in the main support structure,elevator shaft concrete,12-16th floors, exterior curtain-wall installation not properly installed,’will leak forever’. they actually had installers from the wrong trade doing the curtain-wall inst. & had to eventually get the right trade to try and fix it,regretably too late,they had to hire a consulting firm to try and come up with a solution,this is just to name a few problems,there are many more,so dont be fooled…those of you who saw red flags,kudos, you were right on the money…..sincerely…experienced

  134. Posted by The Milkshake of Despair

    “…there were many problems that were hidden in the walls and swept under the rug and never fixed…such as,forgotten rebar in the main support structure…”
    experienced – Can you explain how you discovered that rebar is missing from the main support structure ? Rebar is buried within the concrete and determining its structure after the concrete has been poured is very difficult even for experts let alone average homeowners. (That’s why building codes require an inspection after the rebar is in place and before the concrete pour)
    This is a serious allegation. If the main support structure is inadequate then the damages could be huge.

  135. Posted by experienced

    experenced replies……………..indeed i can, i was there when it was discovered to be missing, through many x-ray examinations it was determined to be missing and then also present when they hammered & chipped for weeks to try and get to the missing rebar and try and replace it, and anyone with even an ounce of experience in bearing concrete highrises or commom sense will tell you that at that point, being the main weight bearing structure of the building[elevator shaft]the structure is comprimised,check the records,if they do not reflect this,then anyone within 64 stories of that bld.could be in jeopardy….and to account for this,there many reputable trades unions present on this job during this time that saw the same things, they actually closed down the stairwell for weeks,while a repair was attempted, putting many at risk from falling debris/massive amounts of concrete dust,that exposed everyone to dangerous amounts silica. if that is not enough for you,then check out the large cracks in the ceilings of the units that continually grow larger. even the curtainwall was found to be incorrectly installed,wrong fasteners [bolts]to the blding,lack of sealent in right places,too much in wrong places,hence the leaks..contact consultants for more info.as for the inspectors, well, it wouldnt be the first time, do your homework….you could not pay me enough to live near that building. again , sincerely, experienced

  136. Posted by eddy

    Sounds like a disgruntled union worker, but if these claims are true I would be a very concerned owner at ORH.

  137. Posted by experienced

    not as disgruntled as you sound eddy,
    you must be a typical site-basher with no conscience,or a sales rep for rincon. after reading all of the replies from prospective buyers, my conscience inclines me to just tell the truth, so they can make a more informed decision,eddy, no matter what you think,
    if i were a buyer i would appreciate the truth . the amount of deception in this industry is inconceivable and eddy in fact i worked for the contractor who in actually non-union,imagine that….and have no intrest one way or the other, just the truth….
    experienced

  138. Posted by eddy

    Not sure why you’re coming after me. I just made an observation about your potential status, and further, supported your position by stating that these are serious claims, and if true, ORH owners should be concerned. Did you even read what I wrote? Your baseless ramblings sound like a whackjob manifesto of sorts.
    Also, I sincerely hope that you don’t think your conscience is clear by posting this information on an anonymous basis to a blog posting from over a year ago that will probably only be read by me, you and TMoD. If you possess real information and evidence supporting your allegations you are morally obligated, perhaps even legally obligated, to submit this evidence to the proper authorities, or at least drop them in the mail The San Francisco Chronicle so that this information would be in the public eye. You are suggesting that ORH is essentially an unstable residence that is unfit for habitat. It’s a pretty serious allegation and since you claim to have worked “for the contractor”, whatever that is supposed to mean, you are certainly positioning yourself as some sort of expert on the situation.
    But, in actuality, I do think that the information you posted is valuable and may help some people in their decision making process. However,the manner and tone in which you have communicated it does create some doubt as to the accuracy / validity of your statements.
    This was fun, thanks.

  139. Posted by experienced

    that is great eddy,but you sound rather assinine,i only hoped someone with some sense would have responded with more constructive views,but unfortunatley we got you,in the future im sure that your ramblings will be laughed at,good luck with that, sir you are not worthy of another response……………experienced

  140. Posted by eddy

    I certainly hope so! Thanks again.

  141. Posted by The Milkshake of Despair

    I agree with eddy. If you have evidence that the structure of 1RH is compromised then you should deliver it to proper authorities. This is a big deal : lives and property are at stake.
    Posting here on socketSite will not accomplish anything towards righting that particular wrong.
    BTW – I am surprised that anyone would attempt to replace missing rebar by opening up the concrete. That concrete column is under compression and bears load from above, so removing concrete will weaken it.
    Usually in such under-reinforced situations the problem is resolved with an external retrofit : bolts driven through and anchored by retainers on the ends. Or like what was done for many freeway overpass column EQ retrofits : surround the concrete column with a welded steel sheath.

  142. Posted by experienced

    now we are getting somewhere,it does not matter who you agree with, but tmod at least you sound like you know, what you are talking about,in regards to concrete patches & bearing structures,as for evidence,many people were witness to this,so as to evidence,i guess you had to be there,but if you thought it was that crucial,it should be a matter of record,and being the concerned citizens you claim to be, you check the records for yourselves.evidently someone was satisfied with the results,they are allowing them to be occupied…exp

  143. Posted by experienced

    now we are getting somewhere,it does not matter who you agree with, but tmod at least you sound like you know, what you are talking about,in regards to concrete patches & bearing structures,as for evidence,many people were witness to this,so as to evidence,i guess you had to be there,but if you thought it was that crucial,it should be a matter of record,and being the concerned citizens you claim to be, you check the records for yourselves.evidently someone was satisfied with the results,they are allowing them to be occupied…exp

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