One Rincon Hill versus The Infinity
The schism between ardent buyers/fans of One Rincon Hill and The Infinity has led to a number of informative discussions about deeded versus assigned parking, ventless dryers, and the overall development of Rincon Hill. At the same time, the “my building is better (bigger?) than your building” comments are derailing discussions and, as Mike notes, they’re “getting tedious.”
As such, and in a similar vein to our “One Free Pass” post, please consider this as an opportunity for both camps to single-mindedly debate the relative merits of both developments. Infinity fans, feel free to thumb your nose at One Rincon’s traffic woes and assigned parking. One Rincon fans, break out your best “the market has spoken” sales figures and common area taunts.
And while we’re not about to stop publishing pieces about either of these developments, we are going to rein in the off-topic (or disruptive) comments and threads. So get it out of your systems now. And as always, thanks for “plugging in.”
One Rincon Hill: Rain, Rain Go Away [SocketSite]
V Is For Valet (And Ventless) [SocketSite]
The (Traffic) Plan For Rincon Hill [SocketSite]
One Free Pass [SocketSite]

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Comments from “Plugged-In” Readers

  1. Posted by 1RinconBuyer

    Great idea, guys……but it just seems so October now. I don’t even know if I have the energy at this point.
    However, speaking of better, I can say, having sampled both developer’s idea of “soaking the guest”, that 1Rincon throws one helluva a shindig…..not only was the preview party back in June fantastic, but they are having “meet your neighbors” fiesta tomorrow night which I am confident will not disappoint since it’s really just an opportunity to continue to market the development to more prospective buyers…
    But hey, that’s probably the kind of idea that’s made the development so successful…

  2. Posted by 1RinconBuyer

    Check that….the party is Thursday night.

  3. Posted by 49Giants

    Warriors, come out and playeeay.
    About that “meet your neighbors” party, I got a call from a One Rincon person who informed me about it sometime last week. I won’t be able to make it, and even if I could, I don’t think I’d go; I’m not big on standing around trying to look cute. But I must admit, I am kinda curious to see who my future neighbors will be, demographically. I haven’t been back to the sales office since signing the paperwork, but my impression was definitely that of a younger crowd. I don’t know if they were just looking of if they actually signed.
    I asked the young lady who called what the purpose of the event was, and she said that One Rincon just wanted to allow the residents to meet and greet each other AND, interestingly, to let everyone know that yes, some units are still available, and yes, they’d be grateful if you could let your friends know. I thought it was sort of strange that she threw that in there. From what I’ve been reading on Socketsite, One Rincon is 90% spoken for, so one would think that One Rincon would kick back a bit. 90% is an A-, yo! It’s always those overachievers that mess up the curve for the rest of the class.
    P.S. I think the sky in the Infinty picture is Photoshopped. =)

  4. Posted by rebecca

    oh, thank gawd. I was getting so tired of every post turning into Rincon vs. Infinity.
    I do not care. Both projects seemed interesting until I got tired of them being argued about.
    these projects represent two buildings of many, many, many types of real estate in the City! What about the rest of us?

  5. Posted by Anonymous

    I want to win the lottery so I can buy a unit in each.

  6. Posted by SaveYourMoney

    Instead of a “meet your neighbors” party, they should label it the “meet your fellow flippers” party.

  7. Posted by Anonymous

    “Instead of a “meet your neighbors” party, they should label it the “meet your fellow flippers” party.”
    Is a requirement that each owner own their unit for at least 1 year allow for a “flipper” label. If I sold my unit 1 year after closing escrow, does that make me a flipper?
    I’m not sure the last poster knows what he/she is talking about

  8. Posted by Anonymous

    What if your “neighbors” is really just one guy who bought 200 condos? That should make for a fun party.

  9. Posted by RinconHillFan

    Ok, I’ve read all the blogs about 1Rincon and Infinify over the last few months and these are the pros and cons people have brought up already:
    1Rincon
    PROS:
    VIEWS: Obviously given it’s hilltop location the views are better.
    QUALITY: Given what we’ve seen from the model homes, the quality of the units seems be be higher (though we’re judging from model homes only). The final judgement will be when both developments are complete…
    PRICING: Folks that got in during the presales or the first few weeks, got better deals.
    CONS:
    LOCATION: Think we all agree the location is ‘sub-optimal’.
    TRAFFIC: With the freeway onramp next to the building, traffic could be heavy during commute hours and weekends.
    NOISE: Related to location and traffic. With the close proximity to the freeway and the onramp, noise could be an ongoing issue.
    NO DEEDED PARKING: Parking restricted to valets only. Think most agree 1Rincon should at least offer both self parking and valet options.
    RETAILING: As of now, there are little retail establishments in the area.
    WALKABILITY: With retail establishments farther away, walking may not be an option for some.
    Infinity
    PROS:
    LOCATION: a block from the bay and Embarcadero, and closer to financial district and downtown shops.
    NOISE: limited to slower moving traffic vs freeway traffic noise.
    RETAILING: near a number of restaurants and shops. Restaurants and grocery store downstairs.
    DEEDED PARKING: all units get at least one deeded parking space, currently valued at $75,000.
    WALKABILITY: See ‘location’ above.
    CONS:
    QUALITY: Judging from the model home, quality of the standards are lower than 1Rincon.
    PRICING: Unless folks got in the first week, prices are higher than 1Rincon.
    NO VALET OPTION: Self parking only.
    I’m not bias toward either development. I got these from the blogs. What other pros and cons are there?

  10. Posted by SaveYourMoney

    Yes, I know all about the one year requirement. It won’t prevent flippers since many are planning on just renting the units out for a year before selling.

  11. Posted by Anonymous

    Another major difference between the Infinity and One Rincon is the common space. The Infinity has an indoor pool and spa while One Rincon’s is outside. That’s just a matter of preference.
    I looked at both and ended up buying at One Rincon. One majoy reason was that the Infinity did not have any one bedrooms with a balcony. This was a major deciding factor as I can’t stand the tiny little opening windows you would otherwise have to rely on for fresh air.

  12. Posted by tipster

    So, given that the ratio of average rent to mortgage/taxes/insurance/HOA etc. is about 1:2, I’ll be able to rent at One Rincon on just about any floor I want for 50% of the cost of owning it.
    Then in a year, when a disproportionate number of units are listed for sale, I’ll buy low. And prices probably won’t go any higher from where they are now in only one year. They might even be lower.
    I can’t see any reason to buy one of the remaining 10% at one Rincon right now. Just rent one of the zillions that will all be available and competing for renters at exactly the same time, and buy in a year when the flippers are all bailing out at the same time. Hoo boy, a formula for saving money was never better invented!
    This site is the greatest!

  13. Posted by Anonymous

    “Yes, I know all about the one year requirement. It won’t prevent flippers since many are planning on just renting the units out for a year before selling.”
    Right, but then by definition, you can’t be a “flipper” if you’re taking market risk for 1 year.
    If you had said “investor”, that would be more accurate. To me, a flipper is someone that gets in and then gets out. And to tell you the truth, this is not the best market environment in which to be either a flipper or a 1 year investor, so I think you’re probably off on your assessment in any event.

  14. Posted by 1RinconBuyer

    I actually prefer the Infinity’s idea of an indoor pool. I wish 1Rincon were actually doing that instead. It makes more sense because it will allow the pool to be used year round versus just those scant times in the city when the sun is shining at its not too cold.

  15. Posted by Anonymous

    Common space at the Infinity may get more foot traffic since there will be commercial spaces on the ground level.
    Regarding the pool, it’s a matter of preference though the SF weather could be little cool for swimming other than indian summer time. An indoor pool allows residence to be able to swim year round…

  16. Posted by Anonymous

    Isn’t the first Infinity tower just about to be capped? I know it’s only 35 stories and its has to be getting close by now.

  17. Posted by Anonymous

    I believe Infinity is 38 stories high. 35 stories are the standard units, followed by 3 stories of penthouses…

  18. Posted by Anonymous

    I guessing then that they will cap the building around the first of the year.

  19. Posted by Anonymous

    “Then in a year, when a disproportionate number of units are listed for sale, I’ll buy low. And prices probably won’t go any higher from where they are now in only one year. They might even be lower.
    I can’t see any reason to buy one of the remaining 10% at one Rincon right now. Just rent one of the zillions that will all be available and competing for renters at exactly the same time, and buy in a year when the flippers are all bailing out at the same time. Hoo boy, a formula for saving money was never better invented!”
    Except you’re making one teeny tiny mistake. You’re assuming that the poster above has a clue at all as to what they are talking about. No one is going to sell at a loss if they have a brain in their head.

  20. Posted by tipster

    Lots of investors have been selling properties they bought at the peak for a loss.
    You intelligently sell at a loss if you anticipate further price declines during the period you intend to hold, and the rent is not covering the mortgage. If you have a brain in your head, you don’t hold under those circumstances. You sell. And if prices are flat or declining next year, there will be a stampede at this property, because so many people bought for investment.
    Furthermore, those people who got in early paid much less than what those places are selling for now. They’ll cash out without losing anything at prices cheaper than they are now and undercut everyone who foolishly buys the last 10% at the rack rate.
    Ha ha. You’d have to be a fool to buy now! Rent at half the cost, then buy at the old, better prices in a year and no one will be taking a loss.

  21. Posted by SaveYourMoney

    “Except you’re making one teeny tiny mistake. You’re assuming that the poster above has a clue at all as to what they are talking about. No one is going to sell at a loss if they have a brain in their head.”
    Selling isn’t always a choice for those who get overleveraged during a down market. Should be interesting to watch what happens.

  22. Posted by Anonymous

    “And if prices are flat or declining next year, there will be a stampede at this property, because so many people bought for investment.”
    Does anyone actually know the break down of the type of buyers at these developments to be making these types of statements?
    Seems like these statement are being made by people who think they missed the boat and are waiting for it to come back to harbor.

  23. Posted by Mike

    I bought at the Infinity because of the location, the INDOOR pool, the price point, and the fact that is (and will be) more of a neighborhood than 1 Rincon. A couple of large buildings across the street are already planned, you’re 1 block from the Embarcadero, 2 from the Ferry Building.
    I was looking at the Met, and I was able to get a better/newer unit for pretty much the same price at the Infinity.
    Personally, I wouldn’t ever consider 1 Rincon except as a pure roll of the dice and the hope of a quick proifit. I think people are underestimating the noise and inconvience of the location. I’m guessing that’s why the units we’re so attractively priced–the developer probably suspects as much as needed to sell them before they were built.
    No matter what anyone says, I just don’t ever see anyone ever saying “hey honey, let’s go take a walk along the bay bridge onramp after dinner, the weather’s so nice.”
    I was talking to a real estate agent and he was telling me that many people are buying units in all the new buildings, because they see it as turning into one of the best areas in the city.
    I’m waiting for 375 Fremont, which could have many of the same benefits as 1 Rincon, with fewer of the drawbacks.
    Finally (I promise!) I believe 1 Rincon has bad feng shui. Siting a building facing incoming traffic is bad. I’m not a big believer in feng shui, really, but some of it does make sense. I ran across this:
    “Would-be business owners should also be aware of unpropitious business locations. Shen cautions against putting up offices or stores at the following sites:
    · Facing an oncoming road. Feng shui theory strongly advises its practitioners to avoid poison arrows which cause unfavorable energy.
    · At the dead-end of a road. A building at a road’s dead-end traps the “poison chi” where it also stagnates and which, in turn, leads to high employee turnover, low worker morale and financial instability.
    · Next to a bridge. The Chinese believe that a bridge drives energy to travel quickly from one place to another. Businesses placed next to a bridge, therefore, are believed to fall from lack of chi due to the fast movement of energy.”
    http://tinyurl.com/yk92zm

  24. Posted by Anonymous

    Given the blowout sales at 1Rincon I wouldn’t be surprised if a large number of buyers are investor ready to flip after 12 months.
    If flippers do all bailing out at the same time, then the increased supply there may cause softness in pricing… It’s all supply and demand.

  25. Posted by Anonymous

    “Seems like these statement are being made by people who think they missed the boat and are waiting for it to come back to harbor.”
    And Bingo was his name-o.

  26. Posted by Anonymous

    1Rincon does have bad feng shui. A home should never face constant incoming traffic. 1Rincon faces incoming traffic in 3 directions and is constant from 1st and the freeway. Energy (which could mean fortune and money) will travel fast thru the building and out away from the building.

  27. Posted by Anonymous

    “Finally (I promise!) I believe 1 Rincon has bad feng shui.”
    This is too much. What else can people come up with to attack One Rincon?

  28. Posted by SaveYourMoney

    “”Seems like these statement are being made by people who think they missed the boat and are waiting for it to come back to harbor.”
    And Bingo was his name-o.”
    Or just people who have no interest in living at either project but are purely interested in observing the spectacle of flippers gone wild.

  29. Posted by Anonymous

    1Rincon has a 1 year selling restriction.
    Infinity has a 2 year restriction. 1Rincon has many more units and most likely more investors. Is it safe to say the inventory after 12 months will probably be much higher at 1Rincon than Infinity?

  30. Posted by Dude

    ….missed the boat and are waiting for it to come back to harbor.”
    Even if that was the case, we wouldn’t have to wait long. Both tipster and SaveYourMoney are right – this is a terrible time to buy. The only good market condition is that interest rates are still near historical lows. But again, as has been pointed out, why would I buy when I can rent somebody’s unit for half their mortgage and watch them bleed cash every month? Per the dataquick numbers, appreciation is flat. Meanwhile I take my savings from renting and put them in high yield savings at 5%. No brainer.

  31. Posted by Anonymous

    “Personally, I wouldn’t ever consider 1 Rincon except as a pure roll of the dice and the hope of a quick proifit. I think people are underestimating the noise and inconvience of the location. I’m guessing that’s why the units we’re so attractively priced–the developer probably suspects as much as needed to sell them before they were built.”
    I would say that both of these buildings are in the same boat. Rincon is no more a roll of the dice than the Infinity.

  32. Posted by Mike

    This is too much. What else can people come up with to attack One Rincon?

    I’m not “attacking” 1 Rincon. I think it’s a great building in a lousy location. I’m being half facetious wiht the feng shui comment, but it just makes sense to me to not build a building on a freeway.

  33. Posted by TypeA

    Don’t both of these buildings have common courtyards open to the public? Sounds like a magnet for the homeless to setup camp.
    Are these developments on schedule? When is move-in?

  34. Posted by Anonymous

    “Even if that was the case, we wouldn’t have to wait long. Both tipster and SaveYourMoney are right – this is a terrible time to buy. The only good market condition is that interest rates are still near historical lows. But again, as has been pointed out, why would I buy when I can rent somebody’s unit for half their mortgage and watch them bleed cash every month? Per the dataquick numbers, appreciation is flat. Meanwhile I take my savings from renting and put them in high yield savings at 5%. No brainer.”
    This obviously savvy real estate investor takes his market ques from Tipster and SaveYourMoney. If we all pay attention to this blog we are gonna be rich.

  35. Posted by Anonymous

    “Don’t both of these buildings have common courtyards open to the public? Sounds like a magnet for the homeless to setup camp.”
    Only at the Infinity.

  36. Posted by Anonymous

    “I would say that both of these buildings are in the same boat. Rincon is no more a roll of the dice than the Infinity”
    Given the superior location of Infinity and the fact it’s location in already in a fairly developed neighborhood with commercial, retail, food and beverage establishments, I would say they’re not in the same boat. Maybe in a few years they’re be equal location-wise, but not now with it’s 1Rincon’s lousy neighborhood…

  37. Posted by Anonymous

    Anyway you slice it, these buildings, and the others in this area, will be good for SF. Will take some pressure off other areas. And will be nice places to live, should be really cool comunities. The market will figure out the pricing over the next year, and beyond. I think the value of the $ will decrease over the next few years and end up saving everyone’s butt. Not a new concept, but seems like everyone is acting as if its a foregone conclusion. Including the US government.

  38. Posted by Anonymous

    Good point about the neighborhood. When the real estate market tanks, it’s all about location. In that regards, Infinity wins hands down.
    It’s never a sure bet a neighborhood will get developed as promised. The Rincon Hill revival looks great on paper, but it needs to be implemented. Easier said than done. If the economy tanks, then all bets are off, developers cancel or back out and nothing changes.
    It is then people wished they lived in a nice establish neighborhood…

  39. Posted by Anonymous

    “It’s never a sure bet a neighborhood will get developed as promised. The Rincon Hill revival looks great on paper, but it needs to be implemented. Easier said than done. If the economy tanks, then all bets are off, developers cancel or back out and nothing changes.
    It is then people wished they lived in a nice establish neighborhood…”
    That’s way some people buy on Russian Hill and others are willing to make a speculative investment in an area that could have huge potential.

  40. Posted by Anonymous

    “I would say they’re not in the same boat. Maybe in a few years they’re be equal location-wise, but not now with it’s 1Rincon’s lousy neighborhood…”
    Hey look everybody, Donald Trump has decided to join this blog….
    Pfffff…….yeah, right. You know squat one or the other about what with respect to either development.
    All these soothsayers make me laugh. I’m at least smart enough to know what I don’t know and what I don’t know is whether any real estate investment will or will not be successful.
    What I do know is that I paid $800/sq ft for my 2-2 at 1Rincona and I’m not too worried about my per sq. ft. price slipping below that number in the future.

  41. Posted by Anonymous

    i think most people have either forgotten or don’t know that the entire 1Rincon project will not be completed until 2009.
    Do you honestly believe (absent a collapsing economy) that the area right around 1Rincon will look exactly like it does right now in 3 years?
    Not only that, the entire west approach of the bay bridge is being redone so that will definitely change the overall feel of the neighborhood right around the crest of rincon hill. I don’t know if anyone has seen the renderings, but an entire portion of the west approach will be moved over one freeway-width and away from where 1Rincon stands.

  42. Posted by Mike

    Not only that, the entire west approach of the bay bridge is being redone so that will definitely change the overall feel of the neighborhood right around the crest of rincon hill. I don’t know if anyone has seen the renderings, but an entire portion of the west approach will be moved over one freeway-width and away from where 1Rincon stands.

    You sure about that? That just rebuilt that section. They’re planning on rebuilding the approach, but 1 Rincon is actually on the onramp, I don’t think that’s being moved.

  43. Posted by this is funny

    “Pfffff…….yeah, right. You know squat one or the other about what with respect to either development.
    All these soothsayers make me laugh. I’m at least smart enough to know what I don’t know and what I don’t know is whether any real estate investment will or will not be successful.
    What I do know is that I paid $800/sq ft for my 2-2 at 1Rincona and I’m not too worried about my per sq. ft. price slipping below that number in the future.”

    I think we made this person really really MAD 😉
    …And is it me or do you seem to like mentioning you “paid $800/sq ft for my 2-2 at 1Rincon”
    I must’ve have heard that a dozen times already. But heck if that makes you feel good then that’s your perogative…

  44. Posted by Anonymous

    “There is truth to the cliche’ that San Francisco is a “world city”. People around the world want to live in San Francisco like they want to live in New York, Paris, Rome, Hong Kong. This has a certain effect on our local SF market, certainly on the upper end of the market and most all of SF is defacto in the upper end of the market. These people do not end up in Union City if they cannot afford South Beach, nor do they end up in Jersey if they cannot afford the upper west side.”
    I got this from another topic but I think this person makes a good point regarding property values especially for the higher end units in SF.

  45. Posted by Anonymous

    “Do you honestly believe (absent a collapsing economy) that the area right around 1Rincon will look exactly like it does right now in 3 years?”
    Yes I do. It hasn’t changed in 30 years so why should we believe otherwise. It’s all on paper, when it does happen then I’m sure we’ll all be happy, but as of now, that area is still a wasteland…

  46. Posted by Anonymous

    “Not only that, the entire west approach of the bay bridge is being redone so that will definitely change the overall feel of the neighborhood right around the crest of rincon hill. I don’t know if anyone has seen the renderings, but an entire portion of the west approach will be moved over one freeway-width and away from where 1Rincon stands.”
    “You sure about that? That just rebuilt that section. They’re planning on rebuilding the approach, but 1 Rincon is actually on the onramp, I don’t think that’s being moved.”
    He is 100% correct. The far right lane of the ramp right next to One Rincon will be removed. It is temporary. If you get on at 1st street and look underneath, you will see that the far right lane is supported by metal beams. This section is temporary and will increase the buffer between One Rincon and the freeway by one lane.

  47. Posted by Anonymous

    You’re correct, it’s not….but to me that is less of an issue than the proximity of the freeway itself. The on-ramp that everyone keep bringing up is so “who cares” because the driveway rises up and away from the on-ramp and will be separate by landscaping. I live within blocks of where 1Rincon is going up and drive around 1st and Harrison all the time and with the exception of rush hour on the weekdays or when there is the mass exodus of city visitors on Sunday evening, that area is completely fee of cars.
    All these blow hards keep getting on here talking about the traffic, the traffic, the traffic…the only people that need to be concerned about the traffic (which occurs only at rush hour) are the people that are actually in it because they won’t have a 10 minute walk from their office to their home.
    The only problem that the on-ramp presents is the concentration of cars trying to enter it during rush hour between 5 and 7 pm Mon-Thurs and 3-6 on Friday. I generally don’t leave the during any of those times so what would I care.

  48. Posted by Anonymous

    “Not only that, the entire west approach of the bay bridge is being redone so that will definitely change the overall feel of the neighborhood right around the crest of rincon hill. I don’t know if anyone has seen the renderings, but an entire portion of the west approach will be moved over one freeway-width and away from where 1Rincon stands.”
    “You sure about that? That just rebuilt that section. They’re planning on rebuilding the approach, but 1 Rincon is actually on the onramp, I don’t think that’s being moved.”
    He is 100% correct. The far right lane of the ramp right next to One Rincon will be removed. It is temporary. If you get on at 1st street and look underneath, you will see that the far right lane is supported by metal beams. This section is temporary and will increase the buffer between One Rincon and the freeway by one lane.

  49. Posted by realestatenewbie

    My wife got me to buy a 2A at the Infinity because she went nuts over the curved layout. Rincon had a much better view for the money but the layout was more ‘standard’.

  50. Posted by Anonymous

    “Yes I do. It hasn’t changed in 30 years so why should we believe otherwise. It’s all on paper, when it does happen then I’m sure we’ll all be happy, but as of now, that area is still a wasteland…”
    How do you even respond to a statement this ridiculous? Memo to you poster, you should believe otherwise because it’s happening right now as I type this response. This is not pie in the sky stuff. It’s literally occurring.

  51. Posted by Anonymous

    “The only problem that the on-ramp presents is the concentration of cars trying to enter it during rush hour between 5 and 7 pm Mon-Thurs and 3-6 on Friday. I generally don’t leave the during any of those times so what would I care.”
    Don’t forget the weekend. They can be horrendous. And even during quiet times, there’s always cars headed up to the onramp. It’s non stop. That’s what happens on a major freeway onramp. Maybe they should rename 1rincon to 1onramp…

  52. Posted by Anonymous

    Yeah, perhaps all the cranes in the area might be a sign things are being built, but what do I know.

  53. Posted by Anonymous

    “Don’t forget the weekend. They can be horrendous. And even during quiet times, there’s always cars headed up to the onramp. It’s non stop.”
    Do you live within 2 blocks of the site? If you do, then you have credibility on the subject, if you don’t, then you are being to the list of blow hards.
    Maybe we need to get the administrator to post a live Rincon Hill traffic/web cam on this site so that we can clear out the ridiculous statements once and for all.

  54. Posted by Anonymous

    The Met is on the same on ramp. I know many people who live there and no one has ever mentioned the traffic.

  55. Posted by Anonymous

    “Yeah, perhaps all the cranes in the area might be a sign things are being built, but what do I know.”
    Good point…..maybe we’re a;; hallucinating and what is really in that part of the city are just warehouses and abandoned space.
    Good just be a bad acid trip.

  56. Posted by Anonymous

    I thought this was 1Rincon vs Infinity.
    It’s more like the world against 1Rincon with a few poster trying desparately to defend the fort. Looks like a losing battle…
    Ever heard of the Alamo 😉

  57. Posted by Anonymous

    “..And is it me or do you seem to like mentioning you “paid $800/sq ft for my 2-2 at 1Rincon….if that makes you feel good then that’s your perogative…”
    You know what, as a matter of fact it does. Should it make me feel bad?
    I apologize if my logic for purchasing a home offends you.

  58. Posted by Anonymous

    “I thought this was 1Rincon vs Infinity.
    It’s more like the world against 1Rincon with a few poster trying desparately to defend the fort. Looks like a losing battle…
    Ever heard of the Alamo ;-)”
    That slightly over the top description makes me think of Bush continually saying, “we must be victorious in Iraq.”
    As measured by what?
    Same thing does for this asinine discussion.

  59. Posted by RinconHillFan

    “..And is it me or do you seem to like mentioning you “paid $800/sq ft for my 2-2 at 1Rincon….if that makes you feel good then that’s your perogative…”
    You know what, as a matter of fact it does. Should it make me feel bad?
    I apologize if my logic for purchasing a home offends you.”
    I don’t think it offends anyone. Think the point ‘this is funny’ was trying to make is it’s silly you keep mentioning it…

  60. Posted by Mike

    Do you live within 2 blocks of the site? If you do, then you have credibility on the subject, if you don’t, then you are being to the list of blow hards.
    I do. Mornings and evenings are usually bad (remember, it’s near the exit AND the onramp). SOME weekends can be really bad as well, like if there’s a Giant’s game, etc, but usually it’s OK.
    Also, one thing I’ve noticed about the bay bridge is that there’s a constant roar, almost all the time, even on Sunday morning. I believe it’s because it’s a double-decker, and the lower deck noise reflects off the top deck and “traps” the sound. It’s very noticeable anywhere under the bridge.

  61. Posted by 1RinconBuyer

    Well people……SocketSite gave us the platform and I’d have to say emphatically that we sure did not let them down.
    Wow.

  62. Posted by Anonymous

    “I believe it’s because it’s a double-decker, and the lower deck noise reflects off the top deck and “traps” the sound. It’s very noticeable anywhere under the bridge.”
    Hmmm…..it can actually trap the sound at 30 stories above the bridge and make it into a double-paned modern condo unit? Wow, that’s some serious acoustical Houdini action.
    Where were you when I was deciding whether or not to go into K? That might have changed everything.
    This is fun.

  63. Posted by Anonymous

    “At the same time, the “my building is better (bigger?) than your building” comments are derailing discussions and, as Mike notes, they’re “getting tedious.'”
    All above evidence to the contrary notwithstanding..

  64. Posted by Mike

    “I believe it’s because it’s a double-decker, and the lower deck noise reflects off the top deck and “traps” the sound. It’s very noticeable anywhere under the bridge.”
    Hmmm…..it can actually trap the sound at 30 stories above the bridge and make it into a double-paned modern condo unit? Wow, that’s some serious acoustical Houdini action.

    I didn’t say that. I was mentioning the fact the bridge, besides the traffic and soot, is NOISY. Even in places like the Harbor Lofts (on Harrison), you can’t really open your windows because of the noise. Heck, I live on 2nd street and you can hardly open your windows for all the traffic noise.

  65. Posted by Anonymous

    Has anyone noticed the alignment of the two Infinity Towers compared to One Rincon. The second tower of the Infinity is right in the middle of the direct line of site to the bridge from the first tower. It seems that most of the east to southeast units will lose their bridge views. The alignment of the One Rincon towers is the other way so one building does not cut the view of the bridge from the other.

  66. Posted by Anonymous

    Smog rising from the bridge is like a plume of smoke. Since One Rincon is usually upwind from the bridge, I think the air will actually be pretty clean on the upper floors. Much cleaner than anything south of the bridge such as the Watermark.

  67. Posted by Anonymous

    The reason for Infinity’s alignment is to preserve the panoramic view of the bay to the Golden Gate. I would say that view is more valued.
    1Rincon’s alignment wipes out the Golden Gate views for the first building…

  68. Posted by Anonymous

    Actually, it probably won’t wipe out the GG views, but will wipe out much of the bay views for the first building…

  69. Posted by Anonymous

    Don’t take it personal Mike. 1Rincon buyers are ultra sensitive these days…

  70. Posted by Anonymous

    Actually, the second tower of One Rincon is being built to the northeast of the first tower. Since the GG Brigde is to the northwest I don’t think this is a problem. Besides, you can’t even see the the GG unless your on like floor 45 or above.
    Can you even see the GG from any floor other than the highest at the Infinity?

  71. Posted by Anonymous

    You likely won’t be able to see anything from the highest floors of the Infinity unless you are facing towards the Bay. The Infinity is only, according to an earlier poster, 38 stories so much of it will be blocked by either existing buildings or new buildings.
    Also, don’t forget that two twin residential towers will be going up right next to the Infinity where the U.S. post office parking lot currently sits at the corners of Beale/Main and Folsom.
    That is going to make some Infinity owners VERY unhappy.

  72. Posted by Anonymous

    Infinity buyers already know that. It’s shown on the building model in the sales office. No secret there.
    And the only views blocked from towers going up at the post office are the west views. The views east, north east, and south are preserved (other than the 2nd infinity tower)…

  73. Posted by RinconHillFan

    Well the towers at the post office lot isn’t a sure bet. It won’t even get started until the 2nd Infinity tower is complete. So we’re looking at possibly 2011 before breaking ground.
    Good chance it may not happen at all…

  74. Posted by tipster

    “Good chance it may not happen at all”
    Hey genius, the only reason it wouldn’t happen is because the real estate market tanks.
    Great deal for Infinity owners: if the market tanks, their units are worth less because the market tanked. If the market goes up or stays flat, the post office towers get built and their units are worth less.
    Sounds like a real winner to me!

  75. Posted by Anonymous

    Isn’t it also Tishman that is doing the one next door? I would think that if they can sell the two Infinity towers, the second development will be a sure bet.

  76. Posted by Anonymous

    “And the only views blocked from towers going up at the post office are the west views. The views east, north east, and south are preserved (other than the 2nd infinity tower)…”
    May I pour you another glass of Kool Aid?

  77. Posted by Anonymous

    76 Comments (77 including mine) on this “tedious” topic….7 combined on the three pieces that follow this one…..weird.

  78. Posted by RinconHillFan

    “”And the only views blocked from towers going up at the post office are the west views. The views east, north east, and south are preserved (other than the 2nd infinity tower)…”
    May I pour you another glass of Kool Aid?””
    Dude, no idea what you’re talking about… How about some informative postings, or at least something that makes sense…

  79. Posted by Anonymous

    Hey tipster, that’s not accurate. With the rise in construction cost, the 2nd Infinity tower will be priced higher than the first (even if slightly).
    Then the construction cost at the towers at the Post Office will be even higher when they start building 3-4 years from now. How can you say the first Infinity tower will be worth less?
    Also, remember the 2 Infinity towers will have some spectacular water and bridge views. The towers at the Post Office will have most, if not all it’s water and bridge views blocked by Infinity.
    So I doubt the market will price Infinity lower than the post office buildings…

  80. Posted by tipster

    You never know. Land prices are down and Tishman could just have an option on the post office property. Renegotiated, the costs will drop. Building materials costs are falling.
    And if land prices are dropping, the price of the competition will drop. So even if the costs of the post office property are up, the competition will be lower and that will force the market price lower.
    And the price of a property with blocked views will be lower than the price of the same property with unobstructed views.
    So if the post office property gets built, prices at Infinity will be lower than if there is at least a chance that the post office property does not get built.

  81. Posted by Anonymous

    “Dude, no idea what you’re talking about… ”
    Oh, I’m quite sure you do….

  82. Posted by Tom

    After reading all of the comments, I have to observe (no matter how many problems I have personally with both developments offerings) that the Infinity and 1Rincon have done an excellent job of appealing to opposites — the polarity between viewpoints here suggests that each is not much competing for buyers with the other…

  83. Posted by Jason

    “”Dude, no idea what you’re talking about… ”
    Oh, I’m quite sure you do….”
    I agree with RinconHillFan. No idea what the kool aid comment meant. At the very least it doesn’t seem to do anything with 1rincon or infinity…

  84. Posted by Anonymous

    If the market forces prices lower, Tishman may decide not to build the post office buildings. So while Infinity prices may be lower, at the very least, it’s views are not blocked and supply is limited…
    Heck, if the market does go substantially lower, the fremont towers and the turnberry tower may not be built. Then all bets are off on what could happen to 1rincon and infinity.

  85. Posted by Anonymous

    Okay, we know it is a “smackdown,” but we still ask that you try to keep it about the properties and not the people. (And yes, we’ve “unpublished” the last couple of comments.)

  86. Posted by 49Giants

    I found a couple of listings for the Infinity: a 2 bed, 2 bath at 1316 sq.ft for $1.22M. The other one is a 1 bed, 1 bath at 760 sq.ft for $750K. To those who have units at the Infinty, do these figure square with what you guy got?

  87. Posted by Anonymous

    “Boosters”……makes you think of some rich alumni members of the University of Michigan or something that are supporting the football team.
    I think both the Infinity and 1Rincon buyers are just happy with their purchases and unfortunately it is coming off as though they are rubbing it in everyone else’s face that they didn’t get in, which I don’t personally think is the case.
    The funniest thing though is how some of them really let these agitators yank their chords rather than either avoiding the blog all together or just laughing it off. The reaction seems to foster more ridiculous statement which in turn fuels this unending blog.
    It is sure is entertaining though!
    [Editor’s Note: We’re biased, but we advocate “laughing it off” and definitely not “avoiding all together”…]

  88. Posted by realestatenewbie

    Depends on the orientation, floor, and view. When I was there in August, I was quoted from 1.22 to 1.65 for available units, none with fantastic views.

  89. Posted by Anon

    I got a 1/1 for $650K, of course, it’s a lower floor and not a water view. It’s also about 840 sq/ft. There are a HUGE number of floorplans there, so it can be hard to compare units.

  90. Posted by InfinityFan

    The 2 bed, 2 bath at 1316 sq.ft for $1.22M unit is only on the 6th floor. Views not great.
    I got the same unit with great S Bay views on the 32nd floor for 1.3M. But I got in during the early weeks. You can’t even touch those prices now. And yes, that 6th floor unit is over priced…

  91. Posted by tipster

    Here is an explanation of kool aid. In the 70s (I think), a cult leader instructed the cult members to drink kool aid laced with poison as a way of “affecting social change”. They were told it was poisonous and they did it anyway (except for a few souls who ducked out and told the story).
    So people who stupidly follow the herd in a belief that may be more wishful thinking than true that something will come true are said to be drinking the kool aid.
    Those people would include those who might believe that real estate always goes up, that if a builder’s costs rise he will raise the price proportonately rather than take less profit in a declining market, that neighborhoods that start to improve will continue to do so, etc.

  92. Posted by Anonymous

    “[Editor’s Note: We’re biased, but we advocate “laughing it off” (and not “avoiding all together”)…]”
    Well said….
    I can’t add anything to the pricing question at Infinity except to say that when I inquired about reserving a unit that was roughly equivalent to the unity that I had reserved at 1Rincon, the price per sqft was in the neighborhood of what the earlier poster mentioned.
    I’m really puzzled by it to be honest because although I understand why Tishman can ask for more per sq. ft. than Kriozere can, I refuse to believe that they can ask and get that much more.

  93. Posted by Anonymous

    “Here is an explanation of kool aid…”
    Thanks tipster……your explanation was spot on.
    I am actually surprised that more people don’t know that that’s what that means. I’m only 33 (i.e., a Gen Xer) so maybe it’s a generational thing and Y’s and Z’s aren’t on board yet.

  94. Posted by Anonymous

    “I’m really puzzled by it to be honest because although I understand why Tishman can ask for more per sq. ft. than Kriozere can, I refuse to believe that they can ask and get that much more.”
    Well you got units at the Watermark, Beacon, Palms, 188King, various devlopments at Mission Bay, etc. all asking for $1000+/SqFt for some of their nicer units. Tishman may be basing their pricing on them.
    Honestly, I don’t think anyone here thinks Watermark is superior to either 1Rincon or Infinity and I’ve seen some of their units going for over $1200/sqft.
    Maybe early buyers at 1Rincon just got really good deals. Early buyers at Infinity also got good deals. It’s safe to say those deals are long gone…

  95. Posted by Anonymous

    Got quiet all of a sudden huh? Guess everyone’s tired….
    I call it a draw…

  96. Posted by Anonymous

    We’re planning a secret attack. shhhhhh…..

  97. Posted by Instigator

    Socketsite should sponsor a party and invite Infinity and 1Rincon fans. Throw in tons of alcohol, and leave a few baseball bats laying around. Now THAT would be fun!

  98. Posted by TheRealScoop

    I’ve been watching this posting for a while and decided to let those of you who don’t live in Rincon/Infinity area know what the real deal is on the noise & environment. I live in the Met and face the Rincon project, and also walk by the Infinity one almost every day.
    1) Noise: the Bay Bridge has almost constant traffic droning day & night that will not go away until the majority of cars are non-combustion engines. The outdoor space at Rincon, while beautiful, is going to be extremely NOISY. Add that to the generally cool SF weather and no outdoor pool – even if heated -is going to be very enjoyable. Having an indoor pool here at Met you can use any day is a MUST in SF for all but the heartiest of souls.
    2) SOOT: Leave a table or chair out on your balcony for two days and see that they turn BLACK from the vehicle emissions nearby. And it’s not just Met/One Rincon – the “plume” as it is called has an almost 2-block radius. So that will hit Infinity too. A friend at Hills Plaza confirms. Leaving your windows open (except for folks at least a couple hundred feet up) and you’ll get that inside your condo, too! Oh yeah, and One Rincon lap swimmers get to breath that in.
    3) CONSTRUCTION – not going to comment on aesthetic differences since you all have that covered. But I did notice two things. The deck (concrete floor) seems to be a wee bit thicker at One Rincon than Infinity. Structural differences would make them different anyway, but for noise transferrance, the thicker, the better. Second, I noticed a number of windows in Infinity’s glass curtain wall broke. Things happen in transit/installation, but I generally think the One Rincon team is being more deliberate about construction. Never seen so much surveying in my life.
    Hope that helps!

  99. Posted by tipster

    Oh that glass problem is nothing. Probably just a minor problem with the pilings not being properly seated, causing the building to start to settle. I’m sure that will stop in a few decades.
    If the glass started breaking every few weeks at 1 Rincon, the developer would advertise it as a feature, not a problem: Fresh Glass Weekly! You’ll never need to clean your windows, not even on the *inside!!* The ultimate in luxury features. Paid for by the condo association of course.
    Better still, If the glass was breaking, One Rincon would announce that you don’t *need* vented dryers, because you can exhaust them right into your homes, and the moisture will exit out of the cracked glass. I’m telling you, One Rincon knows how to turn a problem into a luxury feature!

  100. Posted by Anonymous

    The noise, soot, and pollution is definitely a minus at 1Rincon. I can’t imagine anyone enjoying a quiet Sunday afternoon sitting near the pool or common area reading a book. There’s just too much noise and pollution. And swimming?? Forget it. The noise and wind generated from the freeway won’t make that a pleasant experience.
    And for those that say there’s only traffic during commute hours, there’s ALWAYS cars on the bridge. Going 60mph, you can hear each tire hitting a bump or pothole up there. And the constant hum and drone of the bridge will be there forever.
    It’s like a living monster….

  101. Posted by blahhh [via Editor]

    1Rincon has a whole lot more investors than the Infinity, mainly because most of these investors were looking for cheaper units to buy. By not including deeded parking, the development made it even more affordable for investors. 1Rincon has about 60 junior 1bd while the Infinity has only 11, all of which come with deeded pkg.
    I think at the end you’ll see much of 1Rincon being occupied by renters. I’m sure a few people here will ask what’s wrong with it. Well if every renter takes care of the condos as their own, nothing wrong really, except that 9 out of 10 non-investor resale buyers would instantly lose interest in a building full of renters.
    All in all, the Infinity is simply a much more sophisticated project, be it location or design. The price was high and people are paying higher and higher for it, and that’s what it takes to keep a lot of investors out. More condos will be built, but prime locations get filled out. There won’t be another waterfront location near downtown with deeded pkg for every unit, period.

  102. Posted by anon [via Editor]

    “I think at the end you’ll see much of 1Rincon being occupied by renters. I’m sure a few people here will ask what’s wrong with it. Well if every renter takes care of the condos as their own, nothing wrong really, except that 9 out of 10 non-investor resale buyers would instantly lose interest in a building full of renters.”
    You’re confusing “renters” with “lower-income”. If these units rent out at fairly high prices, there is very little difference in class of people – and very little chance that a place will be messed up OR that people would even know that there were renters there. I live in the top flat of a two unit condo and didn’t know until recently that my downstairs neighbors are renting (I’ve been here two years, them 3). Because of the huge difference between cost to rent and cost to own, there are many “renters” here that would not be renters anywhere else. It will have little impact.

  103. Posted by anonymon [via Editor]

    “1Rincon has a whole lot more investors than the Infinity, mainly because most of these investors were looking for cheaper units to buy.”
    Blahh…you speak as if this is fact. Just curious, where did find this data?

  104. Posted by owner now renting [via Editor]

    You’re confusing “renters” with “lower-income”. If these units rent out at fairly high prices, there is very little difference in class of people – and very little chance that a place will be messed up OR that people would even know that there were renters there”
    Not always true. I live in the new Avalon Tower in Mission Bay where 2 bedrooms easily go for $4000 and up. Having live in luxury condo complexes in the past I get to experience a spectrum of residences and to me it easy to distinguish the owners from the renters.
    Renters tend to not respect their neighbors as much (i.e. loud noises or parties late into the night), more likely to leave garbage or recycles in the hallway, let their pets urinate and defecate in the courtyards, and generally not take care of their units and complex.
    When I lived in a luxury condo a few years ago I was meticulous about everything in my unit, it was spotless. As a million dollar investment you understand why.
    Now as a renter I have to admit I’m not as caring about stains on the carpets or scatches on the wall and hardwood. It’s human nature. Owners have more pride knowing they own their property. Renters simply don’t have as much incentive as owners when it comes up-keep of their units.
    As nice as ORH will be, a building full of renters will have a detrimental affect on the complex and will affect property values.

  105. Posted by ex SF-er [via Editor]

    Prices of ORH will plummet IF it becomes mainly rentals. The reason: mortgages.
    Lenders like to lend on mortgages that have high rates of owner-occupied units, and DO NOT like to lend lots of money into condo complexes that have a high rate of renters (or second homeowners). (The reason: foreclosure rates are lowest to owner occupiers, and highest among investment properties and second homes. this is why one must pay a higher interest rate for investment/2nd homes)
    Thus, if ORH becomes heavily rental occupied (and by this I mean if the owners of ORH actually obey the law and truthfully claim primary residence vs rental vs second home) then mortgages will get harder to come by, thus decreasing values.

  106. Posted by Telegraph Hill Homebody [via Editor]

    I couldn’t resist adding my own bitter brew after reading these One Rincon posts:
    Infinity looks like a squatty green bug next to One Rincon. It’s like half the height! And positioning the second tower (which MAY be a rental building, all you renter-paranoid folks, Tishman is the largest rental landlord in the country) southeast of the first, thus blocking the bridge view from the entire first tower was quite a coup! Who do we have to thank for that? Heller Manus?
    Or are they just responsible for the 18″ of drywall under every window? Who needs that glam floor to ceiling glass anyway? Mies van der Rohe is so overrated!
    And whoever referred to Silicon Valley highrises never cruised the LBJ Freeway in North Dallas. There are Infinities at every exit. Curvy green glass galore!
    Sorry Infinity buyers, I couldn’t resist giving you equal air time. So many One Rincon bashers… it’s just not fair and balanced!

  107. Posted by anonymon [via Editor]

    “Infinity looks like a squatty green bug next to One Rincon.”
    Not to mention the metallic Tetris town homes that seem like they are 1/3 the height of the stubby towers. The town homes block a good portion of the east and south sides of the tower while the second tower will completely block the views of the bridge. Put in the other two Tishman towers right across the street and the Infinity and their views will disappear. That’s unless you paid the 7MM for the penthouse at $2000 per sqft. I’d rather buy in the St Regis for that price.

  108. Posted by my 2 cents [via Editor]

    “Not to mention the metallic Tetris town homes that seem like they are 1/3 the height of the stubby towers. The town homes block a good portion of the east and south sides of the tower while the second tower will completely block the views of the bridge. Put in the other two Tishman towers right across the street and the Infinity and their views will disappear. That’s unless you paid the 7MM for the penthouse at $2000 per sqft. I’d rather buy in the St Regis for that price.”
    Townhomes will be 9 stories high – about 1/5 the height of the towers. The first Infinity tower will be 38 stories, the second 42 or 43 stories. There are other midrises surrounding Infinity in all directions so another 9 story midrise will have absolutely no effect on the views. The Gap building and Hills plaza are around 16 stories high…
    The other proposed Tishmans Towers at the post office across the street may or may not happen. Tishman holds an option to develop there, but if the market doesn’t improve they may delay it for a few years. I actually don’t mind the other Tishmans Towers. It will create a nice neighborhood and speed up the development of Folsom Blvd not to mention bring in addition businesses. Put it all together and you’ll have a great neighborhood from Folsom and Beale all the way down to the Embarcadero and waterfront.
    Views is in the eye of beholder. Some like water views, others like the city light and buildings. Infinity will have a something for everyone. Millenium Towers is completely surrounded by buildings as are Regis and Four Seasons, but they are great buildings. It’s really the location that counts, and so far it easy to see OneRincon has the worse of it. Also, did you forget the second OneRincon tower will block some water views from the first tower?
    Finally, Infinity will be the closest building to the waterfront (along with watermark). There won’t be any other highrises built so close to the bay, ever. That in itself is priceless.

  109. Posted by anonymon [via Editor]

    “There are other midrises surrounding Infinity in all directions so another 9 story midrise will have absolutely no effect on the views. The Gap building and Hills plaza are around 16 stories high…”
    The Infinity town homes look like they are around 20′ feet from the tower. That’s a 90′ tall corridor that’s 20′ feet wide which to me resembles being a rat between two giant sub zeros.
    Location is also in the eye of the beholder. I actually prefer ORH which is perched high amongst the city. The location might not be as convenient as some others but I give that up for having the spectacular views that will be unsurpassed as the area becomes further developed.
    As for the Tishman towers, its only a matter of time until the west views of Infinity get obliterated. That cannot be said for the views at ORH.

  110. Posted by my other 2 cents [via Editor]

    “The Infinity town homes look like they are around 20′ feet from the tower. That’s a 90′ tall corridor that’s 20′ feet wide which to me resembles being a rat between two giant sub zeros.”
    Well lets wait till the development is finished before passing judgement on what the outdoor space will look like. I’m sure they will put in nice gardens and water features in the courtyard.
    And I certainly rather walk in the Infinity complex and the waterfront neighborhood than right next to a roaring freeway and clogged onramp. The decimal level alone from the traffic would irritate the heck out of me if I wanted to relax in the 1Rincon courtyard or pool (why didn’t they put the pool indoors?). That won’t change unfortunately.
    “As for the Tishman towers, its only a matter of time until the west views of Infinity get obliterated. That cannot be said for the views at ORH.”
    True, but the only units that will have it’s entire view blocked is the middle unit facing west. I certainly wouldn’t buy those. The other two corners will still have views of either the southern bay/South Beach or the financial district. Some may even enjoy a view with some texture. Most of 1Rincon’s views won’t get blocked, but the 2nd tower, the Turnberry tower and the Fremont St towers will block some views to the east and north.

  111. Posted by anonymon

    “Well lets wait till the development is finished before passing judgement on what the outdoor space will look like. I’m sure they will put in nice gardens and water features in the courtyard.”
    Fair enough but then it would also be fair to say we should wait to pass judgement on ORH until the second tower is completed.

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